9 ms·

I don't think these articles are written for CS PhDs, who are an exceptional class of PhDs. First, CS PhDs can ALWAYS get tenure-track academic jobs. Maybe not

I don't think these articles are written for CS PhDs, who are an exceptional class of PhDs. First, CS PhDs can ALWAYS get tenure-track academic jobs. Maybe not at a top R1, but getting a university teaching job in CS is not some sort of prize. Quite the opposite. Most non-phd-granting institutions with sub-billion endowments struggle to hire CS faculty (they pay sub-100K, sometimes as low as 65K... if you go that route in CS, your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig). So there's no "oh no plan B" fear. You don't need to be reassured your PhD wasn't a waste after failing to get any sort of academic post, because if you lower your expectations enough you will get an academic post. This is NOT true in nearly any other field. 2. CS PhDs, with a few exceptional subfields, are in high demand. It's pretty reasonable to expect 300K out of a top CS PhD program; the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. CS PhDs who choose industry don't need to be reassured that their PhD has value. It's reflected in their compensation.

photochemsyn 5y ago
Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Therefore, as with other academic disciplines, the ratio of academic tenure-track job openings to new PhD's looking for academic jobs is >> 1, even if you look at industry demand for PhD's.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > yes? No. The trope you're repeating here has some truth in the humanities and some natural sciences, but it's not true in CS. Industry has a veracious appetite for CS PhDs. Only 40% of PhDS stay in academia, and of those only a fraction take jobs at universities that grant PhDs. Tenured CS professors somewhat leave for industry at much higher rates than other fields. Meanwhile, undergraduate enrollments have surged without a corresponding increase in PhD enrollment. Multiple sources of demand are surging, but supply is waning. From a CRA report on the subject: The demand for PhD’s in computer science (CS) in the US continues to outpace the supply. Both industry and academia struggle to fill positions. Since 2014, approximately 2000 CS PhDs have been awarded annually and about 60% of new PhD graduates take jobs in industry [ZwBi19]. The rapid growth in undergraduate CS enrollments during the last decade has significantly increased the number of open faculty positions at academic institutions, but has so far not led to an increase in the number of PhDs graduated. Historically, US PhD programs have relied heavily on international students. Figure 1 shows the number of CS PhDs awarded annually to domestic and international students since 1985. The percentage of domestic PhD students graduating decreased from 69% in 1985 to 37% in 2018. The reliance on international students to drive innovation and leadership in computing research in the US has become unstable as international students increasingly face obstacles or disincentives to study in the US, and an increasing number return home to attractive opportunities after graduation from a US university. Moreover, some areas of computing have security implications that make positions in those areas inaccessible to non-US nationals. The continuing demand for PhDs in computer science combined with this instability of international student participation requires bold action to increase the number of domestic students completing a PhD in computer science. https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-National-Need-for-Increasing-Domestic-PhD-Yield-in-CS.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-Nation...
  - labcomputer 5y ago
    So... Why don't CS PhD's get together to do what medical doctors do and form a cartel to further limit the number of PhDs that are granted each year? The current supply/demand imbalance sounds like the perfect leverage to get the ball rolling. Institutions that don't play ball could be boycotted. A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      > A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative. Probably not. Industry would route around the PhD system. Academia would just hire folks with masters degrees as ad juncts. In order for such a scheme to work, you need a licensing regime. If anyone could practice medicine at any hospital by passing an on-site interview, the AMA would have substantially less power.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Let's take a look at this oft-repeated claim. If we consider the Taulbee CS department survey [0], we can see the breakdown of the CS faculty population. Based on the survey, we see 32% are old-guard full professors, 16% associate professors, 20% assistant professors, 20% teaching faculty, 5% research faculty, and 5% postdocs. These are all positions with a PhD as a requirement. This tells us that about 49% of the CS department faculty has tenure, while 51% is either working toward it or will never have it. Within that 51% there's a lot of churn. Many in that group will fail to achieve tenure. Others will work for a 3-5 year contract and move on afterward. That's also not to say that tenured faculty never quit. Some leave academia for industry. Others go on sabbatical. Others leave for the NSF or some other institution. Others are poached by another department for a chair position. Some will leave once their spouse gets tenure at a superior institution. Others will go home to their native country. So while it is true there are only so many positions, openings are happening all the time. If you look at where CS PhDs are going after they graduate, we see that ~55% are going straight into industry, while only 30% are sticking around to find an academic job. This is a testament to the draw of industry in the CS field, and doesn't even capture the draw for faculty, which can be much stronger (much higher comps offered for experienced researchers as opposed to newly minted PhDs). [0] https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-Survey.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-...
N1H1L 5y ago
Even in non-CS STEM fields, there are a ton of industry jobs. Many of the students in my doctoral cohort went for industry jobs, and almost all of them are making good money (over 120k annually) and are generally happy in their careers. The problem from what I hear from them is the tendency to be slotted into super-technician roles where you are in charge of a single piece of specialized equipment. People tend to stagnate in such jobs (even though the compensation is often really generous), and such people often find themselves struggling after a decade. However, I think it's not the Ph.D. that is not the problem - instead, it's the postdoc. While a Ph.D. is a terminal degree associated with prestige and career advancement, the outcome of postdoctoral training is far more diffuse. It ostensibly prepares you for academia yet often fails to teach essential academic skills like writing grants as the sole PI. The funnel is also really narrow, and many postdocs transition to industry after a few years - often in a very similar role and salary that they would have got straight out of their doctoral training anyway.
- valarauko 5y ago
  As a postdoc, I really feel this comment. However, a lot of people I know do postdocs since its essentially become a requirement for many industry jobs, and getting a job right after PhD is becoming harder & harder. I know people who got industry jobs (pharma) at the salary band you mentioned after 6 years of postdoctoral experience.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    What’s the stigma against postdoc in the US? I don’t get it? In the UK a postdoc is the first job after your PhD. You obviously aren’t going to get a professorship for a couple of decades, and will be too junior for a lectureship as well, so you have to do something in between. What do you do if not a postdoc?
    - _Wintermute 5y ago
      In my experience, if it's research that gets you up in the morning then a postdoc is the sweet-spot - you're experienced enough to make good progress but not too senior that you're sat in meetings all day. It's just a shame the salary is so bad you're almost forced to move on.
ineedasername 5y ago
If CS PhD's are an exceptional class then I think it's only by virtue of supply & demand. There are a larger # of opportunities in industry, and they often pay better. As for students earning 3x your income, it seems like you're taking the lowest paid professors and comparing to the highest paid grads. The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k then you're probably not walking into a $200k+ job on graduation except as an extreme outlier. Those students aren't going to a school with the name recognition required to easily open doors for entry-level $200k positions.
- echelon 5y ago
  > The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k then you're probably not walking into a $200k+ job on graduation except as an extreme outlier. Only because they're not located in the "$200k+ starting" job market. If they move to SF then they're immediately worth that much. Thankfully the jobs are diffusing across America now.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > it's only by virtue of supply & demand Absolutely. I never meant to imply otherwise. Worth mentioning that this will be true for a while though. > The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k I have first-hand knowledge about 3 such institutions, all of which place at least one student in a position that pays >$150K every year. Perhaps shy of 3x but higher than 2x for sure. Averages tend to be around 90K (pulled down by people who choose to go to grad school). > Those students aren't going to a school with the name recognition required to easily open doors for entry-level $200k positions. But they do receive fantastic educations, because they are at teaching-oriented institutions and get hand-held through their pre-career years (internship placement, interviewing skills, etc. are all coached 1:1). The basic issue is that administrators at lower-tier institutions haven't yet flipped the switch where "CS = Finance/Accounting". They continue to hope and dream that their mathematics faculty can pick up the slack, as if it's still the 80s/early 90s and CS hasn't blossomed into its own highly specialized field.
  - 5y ago
p1esk 5y ago
CS PhDs can ALWAYS get tenure-track academic jobs. Maybe not at a top R1, but getting a university teaching job in CS is not some sort of prize. You got to be kidding. Competition for CS tenure track positions is insane. At my school, which is ranked around 50 in the nation, you would have to be pretty outstanding to get it (most candidates were from top-5 schools, in hottest fields, with many strong publications). I’ve heard such numbers as 100 candidates for a single spot.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  They need CS lecturers all the way down to the worst college in the country. Hundreds and hundreds of departments. Everyone applies to the top, but they filter down, and if you look at who’s teaching at the lowest they clearly aren’t superstars and it wouldn’t take much to compete with them.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > At my school, which is ranked around 50 in the nation Top 50 on US News & World Report or CS Rankings means you're at a very good R1 institution. At #50, your institution is ranked ABOVE places like Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, RIT, Syracuse, Clemson, ... You do realize that the USA has nearly 4,000 colleges, right? If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the CS rankings in US News, you reach Walden University at #186. Which means the colleges that US news even bothers to rank in CS constitute less than 1% of the total number of colleges in the US. And you're at a place that's in the top third of the <1%!!! When I say academic CS jobs are easy to get, I'm referring to jobs at the >3,500 US higher ed institutions that aren't even included in US New's CS rankings. Again, in fields like Mathematics or Biology even TT jobs at unranked/low ranked places are non-trivial to secure.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    That’s funny because I’m at Tulane and they can’t seem to hire or retain worth shit.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
justin66 5y ago
> your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig Why are you making stuff up? These sorts of careless lies, which are all too common, can be hard on young people in college, or considering college, or otherwise. They're either trying to value their potential education or wondering why the fuck they aren't getting the job offers they should be getting because so many are telling them their degree is the gateway to instant riches, and you're not helping. > the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. Wrong in a very different way here. You should stop.
- mcguire 5y ago
  If you listen to USNews, Stanford is the top business school and tied with three others for top CS school. Average base salary plus expected performance bonus and signing bonus for Stanford MBA's: $270,394. Base starting salary $159,544, signing bonus $32,551. (https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/23396/report-2020-mba-employment-report.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/2...) Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS: $153,400 (https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-university/masters-degrees/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/#salary https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-uni...) Signing bonuses from 2016-2017 averaged $26,952. (https://wxkcg.com/content/234918 https://wxkcg.com/content/234918) Plus stock.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS We're talking about PhDs.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      I don't consider a PhD to be in any way equivalent to a MBA. As far as training goes, a PhD is about how to do research. The result often in fact is a step down in salary. Plus it seems to be very difficult to find any recent data on salaries. This, from 2013 (!), says PhD salaries are about 15% more and signing bonuses are less. (https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-stanford-cs-and-ee-majors/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-s...)
arghnoname 5y ago
To your second point, most of the people I know who got a PhD (myself included, focus in operating systems) and went into industry didn’t clear $300k. Maybe it depends on your definition of top school though, this was around #14, plus or minus a bit.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  By top I mean top 4 or so.

photochemsyn 5y ago

Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Therefore, as with other academic disciplines, the ratio of academic tenure-track job openings to new PhD's looking for academic jobs is >> 1, even if you look at industry demand for PhD's.

throwawaygh 5y ago
> yes? No. The trope you're repeating here has some truth in the humanities and some natural sciences, but it's not true in CS. Industry has a veracious appetite for CS PhDs. Only 40% of PhDS stay in academia, and of those only a fraction take jobs at universities that grant PhDs. Tenured CS professors somewhat leave for industry at much higher rates than other fields. Meanwhile, undergraduate enrollments have surged without a corresponding increase in PhD enrollment. Multiple sources of demand are surging, but supply is waning. From a CRA report on the subject: The demand for PhD’s in computer science (CS) in the US continues to outpace the supply. Both industry and academia struggle to fill positions. Since 2014, approximately 2000 CS PhDs have been awarded annually and about 60% of new PhD graduates take jobs in industry [ZwBi19]. The rapid growth in undergraduate CS enrollments during the last decade has significantly increased the number of open faculty positions at academic institutions, but has so far not led to an increase in the number of PhDs graduated. Historically, US PhD programs have relied heavily on international students. Figure 1 shows the number of CS PhDs awarded annually to domestic and international students since 1985. The percentage of domestic PhD students graduating decreased from 69% in 1985 to 37% in 2018. The reliance on international students to drive innovation and leadership in computing research in the US has become unstable as international students increasingly face obstacles or disincentives to study in the US, and an increasing number return home to attractive opportunities after graduation from a US university. Moreover, some areas of computing have security implications that make positions in those areas inaccessible to non-US nationals. The continuing demand for PhDs in computer science combined with this instability of international student participation requires bold action to increase the number of domestic students completing a PhD in computer science. https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-National-Need-for-Increasing-Domestic-PhD-Yield-in-CS.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-Nation...
- labcomputer 5y ago
  So... Why don't CS PhD's get together to do what medical doctors do and form a cartel to further limit the number of PhDs that are granted each year? The current supply/demand imbalance sounds like the perfect leverage to get the ball rolling. Institutions that don't play ball could be boycotted. A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative. Probably not. Industry would route around the PhD system. Academia would just hire folks with masters degrees as ad juncts. In order for such a scheme to work, you need a licensing regime. If anyone could practice medicine at any hospital by passing an on-site interview, the AMA would have substantially less power.
ModernMech 5y ago
> Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Let's take a look at this oft-repeated claim. If we consider the Taulbee CS department survey [0], we can see the breakdown of the CS faculty population. Based on the survey, we see 32% are old-guard full professors, 16% associate professors, 20% assistant professors, 20% teaching faculty, 5% research faculty, and 5% postdocs. These are all positions with a PhD as a requirement. This tells us that about 49% of the CS department faculty has tenure, while 51% is either working toward it or will never have it. Within that 51% there's a lot of churn. Many in that group will fail to achieve tenure. Others will work for a 3-5 year contract and move on afterward. That's also not to say that tenured faculty never quit. Some leave academia for industry. Others go on sabbatical. Others leave for the NSF or some other institution. Others are poached by another department for a chair position. Some will leave once their spouse gets tenure at a superior institution. Others will go home to their native country. So while it is true there are only so many positions, openings are happening all the time. If you look at where CS PhDs are going after they graduate, we see that ~55% are going straight into industry, while only 30% are sticking around to find an academic job. This is a testament to the draw of industry in the CS field, and doesn't even capture the draw for faculty, which can be much stronger (much higher comps offered for experienced researchers as opposed to newly minted PhDs). [0] https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-Survey.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-...

N1H1L 5y ago

Even in non-CS STEM fields, there are a ton of industry jobs. Many of the students in my doctoral cohort went for industry jobs, and almost all of them are making good money (over 120k annually) and are generally happy in their careers. The problem from what I hear from them is the tendency to be slotted into super-technician roles where you are in charge of a single piece of specialized equipment. People tend to stagnate in such jobs (even though the compensation is often really generous), and such people often find themselves struggling after a decade. However, I think it's not the Ph.D. that is not the problem - instead, it's the postdoc. While a Ph.D. is a terminal degree associated with prestige and career advancement, the outcome of postdoctoral training is far more diffuse. It ostensibly prepares you for academia yet often fails to teach essential academic skills like writing grants as the sole PI. The funnel is also really narrow, and many postdocs transition to industry after a few years - often in a very similar role and salary that they would have got straight out of their doctoral training anyway.

valarauko 5y ago
As a postdoc, I really feel this comment. However, a lot of people I know do postdocs since its essentially become a requirement for many industry jobs, and getting a job right after PhD is becoming harder & harder. I know people who got industry jobs (pharma) at the salary band you mentioned after 6 years of postdoctoral experience.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  What’s the stigma against postdoc in the US? I don’t get it? In the UK a postdoc is the first job after your PhD. You obviously aren’t going to get a professorship for a couple of decades, and will be too junior for a lectureship as well, so you have to do something in between. What do you do if not a postdoc?
  - _Wintermute 5y ago
    In my experience, if it's research that gets you up in the morning then a postdoc is the sweet-spot - you're experienced enough to make good progress but not too senior that you're sat in meetings all day. It's just a shame the salary is so bad you're almost forced to move on.

ineedasername 5y ago

If CS PhD's are an exceptional class then I think it's only by virtue of supply & demand. There are a larger # of opportunities in industry, and they often pay better. As for students earning 3x your income, it seems like you're taking the lowest paid professors and comparing to the highest paid grads. The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k then you're probably not walking into a $200k+ job on graduation except as an extreme outlier. Those students aren't going to a school with the name recognition required to easily open doors for entry-level $200k positions.

echelon 5y ago
> The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k then you're probably not walking into a $200k+ job on graduation except as an extreme outlier. Only because they're not located in the "$200k+ starting" job market. If they move to SF then they're immediately worth that much. Thankfully the jobs are diffusing across America now.
throwawaygh 5y ago
> it's only by virtue of supply & demand Absolutely. I never meant to imply otherwise. Worth mentioning that this will be true for a while though. > The truth is, if you're at a school where the CS program only pays faculty $65k I have first-hand knowledge about 3 such institutions, all of which place at least one student in a position that pays >$150K every year. Perhaps shy of 3x but higher than 2x for sure. Averages tend to be around 90K (pulled down by people who choose to go to grad school). > Those students aren't going to a school with the name recognition required to easily open doors for entry-level $200k positions. But they do receive fantastic educations, because they are at teaching-oriented institutions and get hand-held through their pre-career years (internship placement, interviewing skills, etc. are all coached 1:1). The basic issue is that administrators at lower-tier institutions haven't yet flipped the switch where "CS = Finance/Accounting". They continue to hope and dream that their mathematics faculty can pick up the slack, as if it's still the 80s/early 90s and CS hasn't blossomed into its own highly specialized field.
- 5y ago

p1esk 5y ago

CS PhDs can ALWAYS get tenure-track academic jobs. Maybe not at a top R1, but getting a university teaching job in CS is not some sort of prize. You got to be kidding. Competition for CS tenure track positions is insane. At my school, which is ranked around 50 in the nation, you would have to be pretty outstanding to get it (most candidates were from top-5 schools, in hottest fields, with many strong publications). I’ve heard such numbers as 100 candidates for a single spot.

chrisseaton 5y ago
They need CS lecturers all the way down to the worst college in the country. Hundreds and hundreds of departments. Everyone applies to the top, but they filter down, and if you look at who’s teaching at the lowest they clearly aren’t superstars and it wouldn’t take much to compete with them.
throwawaygh 5y ago
> At my school, which is ranked around 50 in the nation Top 50 on US News & World Report or CS Rankings means you're at a very good R1 institution. At #50, your institution is ranked ABOVE places like Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, RIT, Syracuse, Clemson, ... You do realize that the USA has nearly 4,000 colleges, right? If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the CS rankings in US News, you reach Walden University at #186. Which means the colleges that US news even bothers to rank in CS constitute less than 1% of the total number of colleges in the US. And you're at a place that's in the top third of the <1%!!! When I say academic CS jobs are easy to get, I'm referring to jobs at the >3,500 US higher ed institutions that aren't even included in US New's CS rankings. Again, in fields like Mathematics or Biology even TT jobs at unranked/low ranked places are non-trivial to secure.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  That’s funny because I’m at Tulane and they can’t seem to hire or retain worth shit.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago

justin66 5y ago

> your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig Why are you making stuff up? These sorts of careless lies, which are all too common, can be hard on young people in college, or considering college, or otherwise. They're either trying to value their potential education or wondering why the fuck they aren't getting the job offers they should be getting because so many are telling them their degree is the gateway to instant riches, and you're not helping. > the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. Wrong in a very different way here. You should stop.

mcguire 5y ago
If you listen to USNews, Stanford is the top business school and tied with three others for top CS school. Average base salary plus expected performance bonus and signing bonus for Stanford MBA's: $270,394. Base starting salary $159,544, signing bonus $32,551. (https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/23396/report-2020-mba-employment-report.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/2...) Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS: $153,400 (https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-university/masters-degrees/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/#salary https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-uni...) Signing bonuses from 2016-2017 averaged $26,952. (https://wxkcg.com/content/234918 https://wxkcg.com/content/234918) Plus stock.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS We're talking about PhDs.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    I don't consider a PhD to be in any way equivalent to a MBA. As far as training goes, a PhD is about how to do research. The result often in fact is a step down in salary. Plus it seems to be very difficult to find any recent data on salaries. This, from 2013 (!), says PhD salaries are about 15% more and signing bonuses are less. (https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-stanford-cs-and-ee-majors/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-s...)

arghnoname 5y ago

To your second point, most of the people I know who got a PhD (myself included, focus in operating systems) and went into industry didn’t clear $300k. Maybe it depends on your definition of top school though, this was around #14, plus or minus a bit.

throwawaygh 5y ago
By top I mean top 4 or so.