6 ms·

Calling age an unknown upstart is a weird take.

ameliaquining 5y ago
Eh, it's pretty new, and new cryptosystems are often more likely to have vulnerabilities. It's still safer than PGP, but that's not a high bar. Hopefully over the coming years it will become more widely used and scrutinized with few vulnerabilities reported, in which case it will then be more clearly safe to rely on.
someguydave 5y ago
age is hardly a complete replacement for GPG
- CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
  A "complete replacement" for GPG would be a dumb idea to begin with. You want a specific tool for each of these use-cases. Choose one from the list for each use case. 1. Private messaging: Signal, WhatsApp, Cwtch 2. File encryption: age 3. Encrypted backups: age + a Reed-Solomon encoder for catching flipped bits 4. Digital signatures: minisign, signify, OpenSSH signatures The problem with GPG (and with PGP in general) is it tried to do too many things. Complexity is the enemy of security.
  - upofadown 5y ago
    >Encrypted backups: age + a Reed-Solomon encoder for catching flipped bits I fear that I might of caused this idea. I have as a result added the following footnote to the article that I suspect is the cause[1]: >Please note that the single flipped bit here is not a realistic example and that in practice damage tends to encompass one or more media blocks. Such blocks tend to be multiples of 512 bytes. I am afraid that someone might actually implement this... [1] https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgpfan:agevspgp https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgpfan:agevspgp
    - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
      I don't read your wiki, so no, you were not the cause of it. This list item was prompted by a private discussion with friends.
  - miles 5y ago
    > 1. Private messaging: Signal, WhatsApp, Cwtch WhatsApp’s record over the last decade does not inspire confidence, and the issues raised this year alone are quite serious: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsA...
    - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
      It still uses better encryption than Telegram, Threema, and several other products that market themselves as "private messaging" apps.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      So don't use WhatsApp. That's a reasonable decision to make! I don't ever opt into it or recommend it to people (though I'd happily use it in preference to PGP email, which is doubtlessly the most risky secure messaging implementation on the Internet, arguably even more dangerous than simply using ordinary plaintext email with Google Mail).
  - adament 5y ago
    Thank you! I was unfamiliar with both age and Cwtch. From what I can tell, Cwtch is also a linear messaging system. Are you aware of any software offering secure non-linear (hopefully threaded) messaging, i.e. a secure e-mail replacement? It does not have to be MIME, SMTP, IMAP based like PGP, but preferably support for similar branching conversations and archiving and hopefully with support for multiple users. I love Signal but I find that finding old messages, or groups with more than a few people and branching conversations is a lot less pleasant than e-mail. And thus Signal is not currently a replacement for e-mail for me but a great addition.
  - jolmg 5y ago
    It didn't try to do what you put on that list. It didn't do messaging; messaging programs used it. It didn't do backups; backup programs used it. It's just a foundation-sort of program that does encryption and signing of arbitrary data, using one format for keys, and allowing working with those keys whether they're in the same computer or in a smartcard/hsm. That simplifies key management, since it allows you to have one Yubikey with your PGP key on it and do basically anything crypto related. But what I believe someguydave was referring to was stuff like smartcard/Yubikey support, not different uses of encryption and signing.
    - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
      > But what I believe someguydave was referring to was stuff like smartcard/Yubikey support, not different uses of encryption and signing. https://twitter.com/FiloSottile/status/1474941666545086465 https://twitter.com/FiloSottile/status/1474941666545086465 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - jolmg 5y ago
        age can't sign, though. It's not as useful. You can't use it for authentication, for instance. You need a separate program with a separate key and its own separate yubikey support.
        CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
        This is a good thing. Separate tool for separate use cases. Bug jedisct1 if you want YubiKey support for minisign.
        jolmg 5y ago
        I'm fine with PGP, thanks.
        CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
        Enjoy your vulnerabilities
b112 5y ago
Never heard of Age here. I looked, seems like it is brand new?
- CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
  It's been around since 2019, and has been discussed heavily on Hacker News.
  - z0r 5y ago
    You're trying to tell us that software from 2019 isn't new? The majority of the software that I use on a daily basis is minimum a decade old, and I don't think I'm alone.
    - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
      It isn't brand new, no.
    - johnisgood 5y ago
      Yeah, and it is supposedly a software related to cryptography. Has it been audited at least? They are promoting it so much, but GnuPG has been around for a while now and loads of people have used it. What about Age? I feel more comfortable with GnuPG.
      - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
        What is your bar for "audited"? I've reviewed both the design and implementation for age in the past and only found nitpicky things to improve (mostly related to HKDF). I can take a fresh look and make a pretty PDF on paragonie.com if you care so much.
        johnisgood 5y ago
        I am sure audits could help Age either way. :) I am just saying that it is still fresh as opposed to GnuPG. This is what people typically call "battle-tested", when the software has been used by a zillion of people for some time. Of course I cannot speak about Age much, this is the first time I heard about it.

Eh, it's pretty new, and new cryptosystems are often more likely to have vulnerabilities. It's still safer than PGP, but that's not a high bar. Hopefully over the coming years it will become more widely used and scrutinized with few vulnerabilities reported, in which case it will then be more clearly safe to rely on.

someguydave 5y ago

age is hardly a complete replacement for GPG

CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
A "complete replacement" for GPG would be a dumb idea to begin with. You want a specific tool for each of these use-cases. Choose one from the list for each use case. 1. Private messaging: Signal, WhatsApp, Cwtch 2. File encryption: age 3. Encrypted backups: age + a Reed-Solomon encoder for catching flipped bits 4. Digital signatures: minisign, signify, OpenSSH signatures The problem with GPG (and with PGP in general) is it tried to do too many things. Complexity is the enemy of security.
- upofadown 5y ago
  >Encrypted backups: age + a Reed-Solomon encoder for catching flipped bits I fear that I might of caused this idea. I have as a result added the following footnote to the article that I suspect is the cause[1]: >Please note that the single flipped bit here is not a realistic example and that in practice damage tends to encompass one or more media blocks. Such blocks tend to be multiples of 512 bytes. I am afraid that someone might actually implement this... [1] https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgpfan:agevspgp https://articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgpfan:agevspgp
  - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
    I don't read your wiki, so no, you were not the cause of it. This list item was prompted by a private discussion with friends.
- miles 5y ago
  > 1. Private messaging: Signal, WhatsApp, Cwtch WhatsApp’s record over the last decade does not inspire confidence, and the issues raised this year alone are quite serious: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsApp_security_and_privacy_features https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_and_criticism_of_WhatsA...
  - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
    It still uses better encryption than Telegram, Threema, and several other products that market themselves as "private messaging" apps.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    So don't use WhatsApp. That's a reasonable decision to make! I don't ever opt into it or recommend it to people (though I'd happily use it in preference to PGP email, which is doubtlessly the most risky secure messaging implementation on the Internet, arguably even more dangerous than simply using ordinary plaintext email with Google Mail).
- adament 5y ago
  Thank you! I was unfamiliar with both age and Cwtch. From what I can tell, Cwtch is also a linear messaging system. Are you aware of any software offering secure non-linear (hopefully threaded) messaging, i.e. a secure e-mail replacement? It does not have to be MIME, SMTP, IMAP based like PGP, but preferably support for similar branching conversations and archiving and hopefully with support for multiple users. I love Signal but I find that finding old messages, or groups with more than a few people and branching conversations is a lot less pleasant than e-mail. And thus Signal is not currently a replacement for e-mail for me but a great addition.
- jolmg 5y ago
  It didn't try to do what you put on that list. It didn't do messaging; messaging programs used it. It didn't do backups; backup programs used it. It's just a foundation-sort of program that does encryption and signing of arbitrary data, using one format for keys, and allowing working with those keys whether they're in the same computer or in a smartcard/hsm. That simplifies key management, since it allows you to have one Yubikey with your PGP key on it and do basically anything crypto related. But what I believe someguydave was referring to was stuff like smartcard/Yubikey support, not different uses of encryption and signing.
  - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
    > But what I believe someguydave was referring to was stuff like smartcard/Yubikey support, not different uses of encryption and signing. https://twitter.com/FiloSottile/status/1474941666545086465 https://twitter.com/FiloSottile/status/1474941666545086465 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - jolmg 5y ago
      age can't sign, though. It's not as useful. You can't use it for authentication, for instance. You need a separate program with a separate key and its own separate yubikey support.
      - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
        This is a good thing. Separate tool for separate use cases. Bug jedisct1 if you want YubiKey support for minisign.
        jolmg 5y ago
        I'm fine with PGP, thanks.
        CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
        Enjoy your vulnerabilities

b112 5y ago

Never heard of Age here. I looked, seems like it is brand new?

CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
It's been around since 2019, and has been discussed heavily on Hacker News.
- z0r 5y ago
  You're trying to tell us that software from 2019 isn't new? The majority of the software that I use on a daily basis is minimum a decade old, and I don't think I'm alone.
  - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
    It isn't brand new, no.
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    Yeah, and it is supposedly a software related to cryptography. Has it been audited at least? They are promoting it so much, but GnuPG has been around for a while now and loads of people have used it. What about Age? I feel more comfortable with GnuPG.
    - CiPHPerCoder 5y ago
      What is your bar for "audited"? I've reviewed both the design and implementation for age in the past and only found nitpicky things to improve (mostly related to HKDF). I can take a fresh look and make a pretty PDF on paragonie.com if you care so much.
      - johnisgood 5y ago
        I am sure audits could help Age either way. :) I am just saying that it is still fresh as opposed to GnuPG. This is what people typically call "battle-tested", when the software has been used by a zillion of people for some time. Of course I cannot speak about Age much, this is the first time I heard about it.