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Personally, I believe it's for the same reason there's an Afrofuturism exhibit at The Met in NYC speculating a history which never was. It's the same reason Bla

Personally, I believe it's for the same reason there's an Afrofuturism exhibit at The Met in NYC speculating a history which never was. It's the same reason Black Panther grossed 1.4b. It's the same reason Ian Smith is painted as a racist and Mugabe is now remembered fondly as a controversial but well-meaning champion of the people. I'm not sure how to phrase this without being accused of dog-whistling, but I do think there's a subversive effort, especially in the media, in painting the history of Africa into something that it's not.

notahacker 5y ago
The main difference seems to be that when we have history and art exhibitions dedicated towards the unrealised visions of white people or successful comic book films featuring [mostly] white characters or reconstructions of Anglo Saxon earthworks which were pretty unimpressive compared with neighbouring and preceding civilisations, nobody claims that its a "subversive" effort... Not sure where you're getting the idea that Mugabe is fondly remembered or that Ian Smith wasn't a racist either tbh
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  We seem to be getting a large amount of successful African American actors and directors and producers in Hollywood with wealth accumulating in A.A. individuals and groups, that could fund A.A. specific productions. In music African Americans have thrived and lifted each other up and created all kinds of amazing music. Why isn't this repeated in film industry?
  - achillesheels 5y ago
    Entrenchment.
    - edmcnulty101 5y ago
      I'm not sure if placing the blame on entrenchment tracks. Numerous filmmakers have come from literally off the street. Tarantino and Kevin Smith and Spike Lee all came from pretty much nothing
prmph 5y ago
> but I do think there's a subversive effort, especially in the media, in painting the history of Africa into something that it's not. Well, I'm not sure how you come by that conclusion. I do hope you are familiar with the civilizations of Kush, Aksum, Congo, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, etc. If you are, it seems disingenuous on your part to claim that African history is being portrayed as something it is not. If anything, popular depictions of African history are woefully lacking in the knowledge of these and other civilizations that existed in ancient times. We need more dissemination of what is known to academia regarding African civilizations, and more research into these barely explored sites. The exhibit and movie you mentioned are clearly meant to be fiction, so I'm not sure what they have to with a supposed "painting the history of Africa into something that it's not"
- astine 5y ago
  I do hope you are familiar with the civilizations of Kush, Aksum, Congo, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, etc. You could also add the Swahili coast to this list.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    as well as Nubia/Meroë
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    Did any of the non-northern Mediterranean/Nile influenced groups ever advanced to technologically advanced civilizations? Or was it primarily tribal conquering/uniting?
    - dang 5y ago
      You started a tedious race flamewar and perpetuated it downthread. We ban accounts that do that. Please don't do that on HN again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - prmph 5y ago
      Is that a rhetorical questions or you genuinely seek to expand your knowledge? In case it’s the latter, then your slant of: > northern Mediterranean/Nile influenced groups is weird. Many European cultures were influenced by the Romans, who were influenced by the Greeks, who were influenced by other cultures. The flow of ideas across time and space is what actually gives rise to civilizations. So what if an African civilization was influenced by another civilization? Does that make it less meaningful? As for what civilizations Africa had, you can read about Kerma/Napata/Kush/Nubia, Aksum, Kongo, Swahili coast, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, Kanem-Bornu, Egypt, etc. However, I suspect you have your mind made up, hence the dismissive “Or was it primarily tribal conquering/uniting?”
daqhris 5y ago
It'd be lovely to get references or links to verify your claims. I'm having doubts regarding that art exhibit titled "Afrofuturism" which is "speculating about history which never was". My main issue is that the exhibit name contains "futurism" which would imply anything related to a potential future, not past history. Reluctant to dig around on the web as I sense some bullshit logic in the previous statement.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
bigbillheck 5y ago
> It's the same reason Ian Smith is painted as a racist Ian Smith's own words and actions are all the paint that's needed.
boeingUH60 5y ago
I'm from Africa and never have I heard Mugabe remembered as a well-meaning champion of the people. Here, he's mostly seen as a corrupt despot who likes spewing silly quotes on the side that became a meme and trend of people attributing every silly quote on earth to him.
- ycombinete 5y ago
  There’s a decent contingent of South African Twitter “intellectuals” who will tell you that 1. Zimbabwe is flourishing and it’s western propaganda that says it isn’t; 2. Mugabe was well-meaning. I’ve never met one in person, and never met an actual Zimbabwean who believed such nonsense.
md_ 5y ago
"Dog whistling" implies subtlety. Black Panther...was a good movie? And people liked it? I'm a little confused about your "in the media" comment--wouldn't the box office receipts represent, you know, what the market actually liked? I'm not sure what any of this has to do with revisiting _actual_ history, which (as https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/06/27/medieval-africa-lost-kingdoms/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/06/27/medieval-africa-... points point) had been often significantly misrepresented. There's a painting of the Congolese ambassador to the Dutch Republic in the Danish National Gallery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_Don_Miguel_de_Castro,_Emissary_of_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_Don_Miguel_de_Cast...). The history of this painting reflects the significant political power held by West African kingdoms--I for one (having had a standard American historical education) was struck by how little I knew about the complex cultural and political institutions in sub-Saharan Africa before and during the early slave trade. In a way, it's not surprising; as David Graeber wrote in "Debt", it was culturally convenient for Europeans--who at the time in many ways appeared quite culturally backwards!--to misrepresent the power and cultural dynamics and justify their own barbarism. In that light, while we certainly should hold research everywhere to the same evidentiary standards, we shouldn't be surprised to learn about more sophisticated cultural histories in Zimbabwe as well, or other places skipped over by the standard history. (Another odd aspect of my American education: I was given the distinct impression that civilization went from Greece to Rome to Enlightenment Europe to America. Strange how nobody questioned who preserved the thinking of all those Greek philosophers after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.) But just because you don't know something--just because the history you were taught must be revised--doesn't make it revisionist history.
AnAfrican 5y ago
If setting up and leading a minority rule government based on race is not enough to be painted as racist, nothing and no one is.
pjc50 5y ago
> Ian Smith is painted as a racist Ian Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Smith) was a racist. He let a white supremacists government to UDI and civil war because he believed that black people were incapable of self-government. It doesn't get much more obviously racist than that.
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  - interactivecode 5y ago
    because the western countries actively dis-stabilizes other countries and continents. Take for example South America and the US
    - edmcnulty101 5y ago
      What percentage of the instability in Africa and Latin America in the last 100 years, do you think that western countries caused?
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        Here's a convenient map for just the US's involvement in Latin America[1]. African countries are harder to quantify due to the number of European powers involved, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of African countries experienced significant instability during the post-colonial period. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America#/media/File:US-involvement-regime-change-Lat-Am.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
        edmcnulty101 5y ago
        That's an eye opening page. I wonder if the drug cartels destabilize the region more than United States interference or if the U.S. is more destabilizing? For example if you did a survey of the people of some of these countries that were destabilized if they think the United States or the drug cartels cause more problems for them. I wonder what they would say. My suspicions lean towards the drug cartels just reading about how they treat reporters and students and police.
akomtu 5y ago
The impressive past of Africa is the, now, myth of Atlantis. That's where it began, but not where it ended. And that's the crux of those archeologists' struggle: they really want to find that past glory of Africa for ideological reasons, but they dont really want to find it, also for ideological reasons. It's as if they are digging sand with their right hand, but their left hand is actively sabotaging the process.

notahacker 5y ago

The main difference seems to be that when we have history and art exhibitions dedicated towards the unrealised visions of white people or successful comic book films featuring [mostly] white characters or reconstructions of Anglo Saxon earthworks which were pretty unimpressive compared with neighbouring and preceding civilisations, nobody claims that its a "subversive" effort... Not sure where you're getting the idea that Mugabe is fondly remembered or that Ian Smith wasn't a racist either tbh

edmcnulty101 5y ago
We seem to be getting a large amount of successful African American actors and directors and producers in Hollywood with wealth accumulating in A.A. individuals and groups, that could fund A.A. specific productions. In music African Americans have thrived and lifted each other up and created all kinds of amazing music. Why isn't this repeated in film industry?
- achillesheels 5y ago
  Entrenchment.
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    I'm not sure if placing the blame on entrenchment tracks. Numerous filmmakers have come from literally off the street. Tarantino and Kevin Smith and Spike Lee all came from pretty much nothing

prmph 5y ago

> but I do think there's a subversive effort, especially in the media, in painting the history of Africa into something that it's not. Well, I'm not sure how you come by that conclusion. I do hope you are familiar with the civilizations of Kush, Aksum, Congo, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, etc. If you are, it seems disingenuous on your part to claim that African history is being portrayed as something it is not. If anything, popular depictions of African history are woefully lacking in the knowledge of these and other civilizations that existed in ancient times. We need more dissemination of what is known to academia regarding African civilizations, and more research into these barely explored sites. The exhibit and movie you mentioned are clearly meant to be fiction, so I'm not sure what they have to with a supposed "painting the history of Africa into something that it's not"

astine 5y ago
I do hope you are familiar with the civilizations of Kush, Aksum, Congo, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, etc. You could also add the Swahili coast to this list.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  as well as Nubia/Meroë
- edmcnulty101 5y ago
  Did any of the non-northern Mediterranean/Nile influenced groups ever advanced to technologically advanced civilizations? Or was it primarily tribal conquering/uniting?
  - dang 5y ago
    You started a tedious race flamewar and perpetuated it downthread. We ban accounts that do that. Please don't do that on HN again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - prmph 5y ago
    Is that a rhetorical questions or you genuinely seek to expand your knowledge? In case it’s the latter, then your slant of: > northern Mediterranean/Nile influenced groups is weird. Many European cultures were influenced by the Romans, who were influenced by the Greeks, who were influenced by other cultures. The flow of ideas across time and space is what actually gives rise to civilizations. So what if an African civilization was influenced by another civilization? Does that make it less meaningful? As for what civilizations Africa had, you can read about Kerma/Napata/Kush/Nubia, Aksum, Kongo, Swahili coast, Ghana/Mali/Songhai, Kanem-Bornu, Egypt, etc. However, I suspect you have your mind made up, hence the dismissive “Or was it primarily tribal conquering/uniting?”

daqhris 5y ago

It'd be lovely to get references or links to verify your claims. I'm having doubts regarding that art exhibit titled "Afrofuturism" which is "speculating about history which never was". My main issue is that the exhibit name contains "futurism" which would imply anything related to a potential future, not past history. Reluctant to dig around on the web as I sense some bullshit logic in the previous statement.

honkdaddy 5y ago

bigbillheck 5y ago

> It's the same reason Ian Smith is painted as a racist Ian Smith's own words and actions are all the paint that's needed.

boeingUH60 5y ago

I'm from Africa and never have I heard Mugabe remembered as a well-meaning champion of the people. Here, he's mostly seen as a corrupt despot who likes spewing silly quotes on the side that became a meme and trend of people attributing every silly quote on earth to him.

ycombinete 5y ago
There’s a decent contingent of South African Twitter “intellectuals” who will tell you that 1. Zimbabwe is flourishing and it’s western propaganda that says it isn’t; 2. Mugabe was well-meaning. I’ve never met one in person, and never met an actual Zimbabwean who believed such nonsense.

md_ 5y ago

"Dog whistling" implies subtlety. Black Panther...was a good movie? And people liked it? I'm a little confused about your "in the media" comment--wouldn't the box office receipts represent, you know, what the market actually liked? I'm not sure what any of this has to do with revisiting _actual_ history, which (as https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/06/27/medieval-africa-lost-kingdoms/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2019/06/27/medieval-africa-... points point) had been often significantly misrepresented. There's a painting of the Congolese ambassador to the Dutch Republic in the Danish National Gallery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_Don_Miguel_de_Castro,_Emissary_of_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portrait_of_Don_Miguel_de_Cast...). The history of this painting reflects the significant political power held by West African kingdoms--I for one (having had a standard American historical education) was struck by how little I knew about the complex cultural and political institutions in sub-Saharan Africa before and during the early slave trade. In a way, it's not surprising; as David Graeber wrote in "Debt", it was culturally convenient for Europeans--who at the time in many ways appeared quite culturally backwards!--to misrepresent the power and cultural dynamics and justify their own barbarism. In that light, while we certainly should hold research everywhere to the same evidentiary standards, we shouldn't be surprised to learn about more sophisticated cultural histories in Zimbabwe as well, or other places skipped over by the standard history. (Another odd aspect of my American education: I was given the distinct impression that civilization went from Greece to Rome to Enlightenment Europe to America. Strange how nobody questioned who preserved the thinking of all those Greek philosophers after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.) But just because you don't know something--just because the history you were taught must be revised--doesn't make it revisionist history.

AnAfrican 5y ago

If setting up and leading a minority rule government based on race is not enough to be painted as racist, nothing and no one is.

pjc50 5y ago

> Ian Smith is painted as a racist Ian Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Smith) was a racist. He let a white supremacists government to UDI and civil war because he believed that black people were incapable of self-government. It doesn't get much more obviously racist than that.

edmcnulty101 5y ago
- interactivecode 5y ago
  because the western countries actively dis-stabilizes other countries and continents. Take for example South America and the US
  - edmcnulty101 5y ago
    What percentage of the instability in Africa and Latin America in the last 100 years, do you think that western countries caused?
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Here's a convenient map for just the US's involvement in Latin America[1]. African countries are harder to quantify due to the number of European powers involved, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of African countries experienced significant instability during the post-colonial period. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America#/media/File:US-involvement-regime-change-Lat-Am.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
      - edmcnulty101 5y ago
        That's an eye opening page. I wonder if the drug cartels destabilize the region more than United States interference or if the U.S. is more destabilizing? For example if you did a survey of the people of some of these countries that were destabilized if they think the United States or the drug cartels cause more problems for them. I wonder what they would say. My suspicions lean towards the drug cartels just reading about how they treat reporters and students and police.

akomtu 5y ago

The impressive past of Africa is the, now, myth of Atlantis. That's where it began, but not where it ended. And that's the crux of those archeologists' struggle: they really want to find that past glory of Africa for ideological reasons, but they dont really want to find it, also for ideological reasons. It's as if they are digging sand with their right hand, but their left hand is actively sabotaging the process.