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I am sorry, but what? You can just remove the association of the eSIM with the telephone and activate it in another. There is no lock in here.

intricatedetail 5y ago
Yet.
- csunbird 5y ago
  The SIM vendor lock in does exist with the physical SIM card already, with the vendor sold phones.
  - larrysalibra 5y ago
    Carriers can also configure physical SIMs to only work with certain equipment.
  - tjoff 5y ago
    It exist, yes. But isn't used much in practice (where I live at least). I think it is illegal to charge to unlock them so the incentive for them to exist disappeared entirely. Which kind of highlighted that it was a dark-pattern that only served to trick customers. Kind of reinforces the notion that we should be worried...
Nextgrid 5y ago
Sorry, you can't. The e-SIM provisioning process is under the control of the carrier. They give you a QR code (or SM-DP string) which you scan/enter, your phone then contacts the carrier and after some back and forth acquires cryptographic keys which are stored in the eSIM chip. There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason. I can see them taking advantage of this to prevent travellers using local SIMs for example - sure you can delete your eSIM and get a local one, but getting your own eSIM back will be difficult or outright impossible if you're still travelling (they may require physical ID verification, etc).
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Could Apple permit you to store multiple provisioned eSIMs on one device, and switch between via UI?
  - rosndo 5y ago
    That’s literally how it works… You can have as many eSIMs as you’d like, I currently have 8 on my phone and can choose which two I want to have active at any time. I’m not sure why nextgrid is constructing this weird technological strawman.
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Apologies - I was not aware you can have multiple eSIMs stored. If that's the case it lessens the impact, though switching between phones is still a problem.
      - rosndo 5y ago
        Not any more than with regular physical SIMs, if your carrier wants to be shit they can lock a physical SIM to a specific device too.
        Nextgrid 5y ago
        True - my point was that the carrier can't prevent you from physically switching SIMs and locking them at the network-level to an IMEI would cause backlash as it would break long-established conventions. With eSIM, not only are they in control of switching eSIMs between devices but it also gives them a clean slate to introduce the aforementioned network-level restriction under excuses such as security (though again since they're in control of switching eSIMs they can just block it there or be annoying in other ways - some carriers already charge for reissuing eSIMs despite it being a completely automated process).
        rosndo 5y ago

intricatedetail 5y ago

Yet.

csunbird 5y ago
The SIM vendor lock in does exist with the physical SIM card already, with the vendor sold phones.
- larrysalibra 5y ago
  Carriers can also configure physical SIMs to only work with certain equipment.
- tjoff 5y ago
  It exist, yes. But isn't used much in practice (where I live at least). I think it is illegal to charge to unlock them so the incentive for them to exist disappeared entirely. Which kind of highlighted that it was a dark-pattern that only served to trick customers. Kind of reinforces the notion that we should be worried...

Nextgrid 5y ago

Sorry, you can't. The e-SIM provisioning process is under the control of the carrier. They give you a QR code (or SM-DP string) which you scan/enter, your phone then contacts the carrier and after some back and forth acquires cryptographic keys which are stored in the eSIM chip. There is no way to extract these cryptographic keys and enter them into another phone. Instead, you have to repeat the whole process and get a new QR code from the carrier. They may charge for this, or just be a pain in general and make it difficult or refuse for whatever reason. I can see them taking advantage of this to prevent travellers using local SIMs for example - sure you can delete your eSIM and get a local one, but getting your own eSIM back will be difficult or outright impossible if you're still travelling (they may require physical ID verification, etc).

ceejayoz 5y ago
Could Apple permit you to store multiple provisioned eSIMs on one device, and switch between via UI?
- rosndo 5y ago
  That’s literally how it works… You can have as many eSIMs as you’d like, I currently have 8 on my phone and can choose which two I want to have active at any time. I’m not sure why nextgrid is constructing this weird technological strawman.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Apologies - I was not aware you can have multiple eSIMs stored. If that's the case it lessens the impact, though switching between phones is still a problem.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Not any more than with regular physical SIMs, if your carrier wants to be shit they can lock a physical SIM to a specific device too.
      - Nextgrid 5y ago
        True - my point was that the carrier can't prevent you from physically switching SIMs and locking them at the network-level to an IMEI would cause backlash as it would break long-established conventions. With eSIM, not only are they in control of switching eSIMs between devices but it also gives them a clean slate to introduce the aforementioned network-level restriction under excuses such as security (though again since they're in control of switching eSIMs they can just block it there or be annoying in other ways - some carriers already charge for reissuing eSIMs despite it being a completely automated process).
        rosndo 5y ago