4 ms·

Will this type of thing still happen when/if we all are using crypto payments? I know that bringing up crypto creates a strong positive/negative "with us or ag

Will this type of thing still happen when/if we all are using crypto payments? I know that bringing up crypto creates a strong positive/negative "with us or against us" reaction. But it would be great if we could discuss this question on a technical level this time! It is a real question: Will using Bitcoin and the lightning network (or similar technologies) free us from the constant fear that a human or algorithmic error kills our business?

Griffinsauce 5y ago
Will there be a service in between you and that network? If so, yes.
- FreeHugs 5y ago
  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is pretty easy to run a lightning node. And then no service is between you and the network.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Doubt it, because if you wanted to buy a $2 candy bar with Bitcoin in April, it would have cost you over $50 to do so. Stripe charges a rate of 2.9% + $0.30 by default. Everyone but money launderers would choose to use any other payment method than Bitcoin.
- FreeHugs 5y ago
  Layer two solutions like the lightning network make payments almost free. Much cheaper than using Stripe.
  - throwaway2048 5y ago
    They also remove almost all the supposed decentralization and trustless model benefits of bitcoin
    - FreeHugs 5y ago
      How so? I have not much knowledge about it, but my expectation is that when you run your own lightning node, there is no reduction in decentralization and trustlessness. And I would expect that running your own node is as easy as setting up a cheap $10/month VM, download the software, start it, wait some hours until it is synced and then you are good to go?
Griffinsauce 5y ago
If there is a service (API) between you and that network, yes.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I mean. You can still use cash. Crypto is similarly an "apples to California" comparison. My extremely limited understanding of payment processor issues and values to companies, is that it's technical aspects a little bit, and legal and process and regulation requirements and fraud detection most of all -- in other words, things which are explicitly "out of scope" or actively rejected by most crypto stacks today. Could it be an area crypto addresses in future? Sure why not. Without becoming basically the same thing? Doubtful. (In service of interesting conversation, I'm excluding all other current deal breakers such as transaction cost, time, volatility, complexity etc and assuming a "but coin but works / practical" magical Crypto of future :)
- FreeHugs 5y ago
  What do you mean with "legal and process and regulation"? Regarding "fraud detection" - isn't that a self made problem of payment processors? When the settlement is instant, the merchant does not need to be afraid of fraud. Bitcoin paid via the lightning network is paid and can not be taken back.
  - salawat 5y ago
    >When the settlement is instant, the merchant does not need to be afraid of fraud. There is no instant settlement between entities at different institutions. If you are in the same bank, you can pull it off because the money never leaves your books. If it does leave your books, you're riding the overnight ACH, and incurring propagation delays as the receiving bank filters the funds through process. Remember, all networks are glorified, process driven, protocol mediated implementations of humans playing a repetitive game of telephone. The chain ain't done til everybody is done metaphorically talking. >Regarding "fraud detection" Let me reframe your question in a more familiar context. Fraud becomes software exploitation over an internetwork of trusted hosts. In theory, if no one was a dick... there should be no problems. >Bitcoin paid via the lightning network is paid and can not be taken back. This is an anti-feature in the the financial service space. In fact, a really conservative institution won't even consider a transaction truly settled til the dispute window lapses. Mistakes are made, accounts compromised. Lack of reversals or process to accommodate the work stream does not paint you in a flattering light.

Griffinsauce 5y ago

Will there be a service in between you and that network? If so, yes.

FreeHugs 5y ago
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is pretty easy to run a lightning node. And then no service is between you and the network.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Doubt it, because if you wanted to buy a $2 candy bar with Bitcoin in April, it would have cost you over $50 to do so. Stripe charges a rate of 2.9% + $0.30 by default. Everyone but money launderers would choose to use any other payment method than Bitcoin.

FreeHugs 5y ago
Layer two solutions like the lightning network make payments almost free. Much cheaper than using Stripe.
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  They also remove almost all the supposed decentralization and trustless model benefits of bitcoin
  - FreeHugs 5y ago
    How so? I have not much knowledge about it, but my expectation is that when you run your own lightning node, there is no reduction in decentralization and trustlessness. And I would expect that running your own node is as easy as setting up a cheap $10/month VM, download the software, start it, wait some hours until it is synced and then you are good to go?

Griffinsauce 5y ago

If there is a service (API) between you and that network, yes.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I mean. You can still use cash. Crypto is similarly an "apples to California" comparison. My extremely limited understanding of payment processor issues and values to companies, is that it's technical aspects a little bit, and legal and process and regulation requirements and fraud detection most of all -- in other words, things which are explicitly "out of scope" or actively rejected by most crypto stacks today. Could it be an area crypto addresses in future? Sure why not. Without becoming basically the same thing? Doubtful. (In service of interesting conversation, I'm excluding all other current deal breakers such as transaction cost, time, volatility, complexity etc and assuming a "but coin but works / practical" magical Crypto of future :)

FreeHugs 5y ago
What do you mean with "legal and process and regulation"? Regarding "fraud detection" - isn't that a self made problem of payment processors? When the settlement is instant, the merchant does not need to be afraid of fraud. Bitcoin paid via the lightning network is paid and can not be taken back.
- salawat 5y ago
  >When the settlement is instant, the merchant does not need to be afraid of fraud. There is no instant settlement between entities at different institutions. If you are in the same bank, you can pull it off because the money never leaves your books. If it does leave your books, you're riding the overnight ACH, and incurring propagation delays as the receiving bank filters the funds through process. Remember, all networks are glorified, process driven, protocol mediated implementations of humans playing a repetitive game of telephone. The chain ain't done til everybody is done metaphorically talking. >Regarding "fraud detection" Let me reframe your question in a more familiar context. Fraud becomes software exploitation over an internetwork of trusted hosts. In theory, if no one was a dick... there should be no problems. >Bitcoin paid via the lightning network is paid and can not be taken back. This is an anti-feature in the the financial service space. In fact, a really conservative institution won't even consider a transaction truly settled til the dispute window lapses. Mistakes are made, accounts compromised. Lack of reversals or process to accommodate the work stream does not paint you in a flattering light.