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That's just off the top of my head; apologetics is a big field. Of course, all of these and more warrant a lot of study and consideration, and if you go somewh

by Dove 15y ago

That's just off the top of my head; apologetics is a big field. Of course, all of these and more warrant a lot of study and consideration, and if you go somewhere like infidels.org, you will find answers for all of them (of varying quality). As I say, there is no such thing as proof. But there can be compelling evidence. I think the most forceful thing to me is really the comprehensive case. Almost across the board, I think the Christian worldview is significantly more intellectually satisfying than the atheist one. Literally, better explanations. The universe looks like God created it, and happily that's what I believe. The atheist explanation has a lot of unverifiable stuff about parallel universes and a lot of "I don't know, I don't have to explain everything." The Bible looks like God wrote it, and happily that's what I believe. I haven't read an atheist explanation for it yet that sounds like the author has actually read the basic history. The Church looks like God runs it, and happily that's what I believe. The atheist explanation makes it pretty clear they have no idea what church even is. My mystical experience looks like communication with God, and happily that's what I believe. The atheist explanation involves waffling and ghosts. Or sometimes aliens. If it was just one thing, I might say it was a fluke. If those cases that I say look like God's work were vacuous explanations (in the sense that God can do anything), it would be dumb. But look, if you get into the evidence, the Christian worldview is just . . . better. Intellectually, it's way better. The only advantage to atheism is that you get to look like you're superior to everyone else. If you're a Christian, a lot of people think you're crazy, dumb, or both. I honestly think atheism is sold on pride. And maybe hatred for God, the church, and Christians, at least to judge from the rhetoric. It sure as heck ain't the evidence. If you follow reason wherever it leads, and don't care who ridicules you, you wind up as a Christian. Lots of folks have done just that.

JoachimSchipper 15y ago
[Sorry for entering this far-too-long thread; your message popped up in "comments" and looked interesting; I'm just making a side comment.] Your criticism that many atheists don't really "get" Christianity is, I think, correct. Certainly, something like Dawkin's "The God Delusion" is a wonderful rallying cry, but hardly an earnest and respectful attempt to convince the other side. Nonetheless, your own characterization of the atheist side is not entirely fair either. People like Dawkins and the late James Randi are passionate, but passionate scientists - Randi really would have paid his prize for a repeat of many of the miracles described in the gospels, and Dawkins does (did?) try to fairly weigh the evidence, as a scientist should. In fact, an unambiguous miracle in Randi's labs, replicated a few times, would convert a significant fraction of today's atheists: they aren't committed to hating God, they've just drawn a negative conclusion after earnestly considering the evidence. The level of debate from either side tends to be low, but remember that a prepared and intelligent person winning a debate with an idiot doesn't really prove the truth of the debated position either way. No matter what you believe, there are (some) intelligent, truth-loving and earnestly convinced people on the other side of the divide[1]; it's good to have some idea about how these people can be so wrong. [I'm a first-generation atheist and consider studying religion(s) to be a bit of a hobby.] [1] (Actually, don't forget about the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc; there are more than two parties in this debate.)
- Dove 15y ago
  Well said. I am aware that much of the venom projected at Christians by atheists is a result of the worldview, not the cause. By some accounts, our willful ignorance is endangering civilization. I'd be mad, too. And I think some of it is just. A lot of secular critiques of the church as being mindless and anti-science . . . are right. And there are religious scholars making the same argument. My take that atheism is about pride and hatred -- that's a personal judgement based on experience. It seems to me that most of the folks I talk to are atheists because of emotional issues they have, not because of evidence. But I certainly acknowledge that such a generalization is not a rule. And it certainly, certainly is the case that the universe is a big and mysterious enough place that smart, honest people can disagree. And honestly, I wish we'd talk more. I think our worldviews would be richer for it.

by Dove 15y ago

JoachimSchipper 15y ago

[Sorry for entering this far-too-long thread; your message popped up in "comments" and looked interesting; I'm just making a side comment.] Your criticism that many atheists don't really "get" Christianity is, I think, correct. Certainly, something like Dawkin's "The God Delusion" is a wonderful rallying cry, but hardly an earnest and respectful attempt to convince the other side. Nonetheless, your own characterization of the atheist side is not entirely fair either. People like Dawkins and the late James Randi are passionate, but passionate scientists - Randi really would have paid his prize for a repeat of many of the miracles described in the gospels, and Dawkins does (did?) try to fairly weigh the evidence, as a scientist should. In fact, an unambiguous miracle in Randi's labs, replicated a few times, would convert a significant fraction of today's atheists: they aren't committed to hating God, they've just drawn a negative conclusion after earnestly considering the evidence. The level of debate from either side tends to be low, but remember that a prepared and intelligent person winning a debate with an idiot doesn't really prove the truth of the debated position either way. No matter what you believe, there are (some) intelligent, truth-loving and earnestly convinced people on the other side of the divide[1]; it's good to have some idea about how these people can be so wrong. [I'm a first-generation atheist and consider studying religion(s) to be a bit of a hobby.] [1] (Actually, don't forget about the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc; there are more than two parties in this debate.)

Dove 15y ago
Well said. I am aware that much of the venom projected at Christians by atheists is a result of the worldview, not the cause. By some accounts, our willful ignorance is endangering civilization. I'd be mad, too. And I think some of it is just. A lot of secular critiques of the church as being mindless and anti-science . . . are right. And there are religious scholars making the same argument. My take that atheism is about pride and hatred -- that's a personal judgement based on experience. It seems to me that most of the folks I talk to are atheists because of emotional issues they have, not because of evidence. But I certainly acknowledge that such a generalization is not a rule. And it certainly, certainly is the case that the universe is a big and mysterious enough place that smart, honest people can disagree. And honestly, I wish we'd talk more. I think our worldviews would be richer for it.