3 ms·

Such definition is just useless and therefore should be abandoned. > hover none of them improves programmer productivity by an order of magnitude. I disagree.

by Ginden 5y ago

Such definition is just useless and therefore should be abandoned. > hover none of them improves programmer productivity by an order of magnitude. I disagree. I can write efficient SQL statement in 2 minutes, but implementing efficient multiple "table" join with spill to disk took me much longer than 20 minutes.

delusional 5y ago
Agreed. I can't really believe I am reading this discussion. Languages are just user interfaces. It's OBVIOUS that there's a difference between the granularity of the Java UI and the C UI. It's also OBVIOUS that such a difference would greatly impact the speed of use. I could write a garbage collector in C, in Java it's already there. The whole point is discussing those differences, so anyone saying they are the same has completely missed the point of the discussion. It's like saying Windows 11 and OS/2 are the same because they are both Operating Systems.
- coliveira 5y ago
  What you're missing is the level of comparison. Everything is different from everything else if you're looking only at differences. But if you want to classify concepts, you need to determine what are the similarities. So, yes, if you're talking about objects in the category of operating systems, W11 and OS/2 are in the same category. If you're looking at languages that offer high level constructs, C and Java are at the same level. Languages that offer only direct machine instructions (assembly) are at an inferior level.
loup-vaillant 5y ago
SQL is a special purpose language. Special purpose languages can be amazing (and SQL certainly is), but here we’re comparing general purpose languages. In this context, the question is more, are Lisp or Haskell, or Python 10 times as productive as C? I used to think so, but now I seriously doubt it. I mean, the reason I’m so much faster at writing small Python programs than I am at writing equivalent C programs, is because Python’s standard library is so damn huge. This is not a case of the language being more productive, this is a case of the work already being done.
pkolaczk 5y ago
If someone gave you a library of functions for doing table joins in C, it wouldn't take you much longer than those 2 minutes as well.

by Ginden 5y ago

delusional 5y ago

Agreed. I can't really believe I am reading this discussion. Languages are just user interfaces. It's OBVIOUS that there's a difference between the granularity of the Java UI and the C UI. It's also OBVIOUS that such a difference would greatly impact the speed of use. I could write a garbage collector in C, in Java it's already there. The whole point is discussing those differences, so anyone saying they are the same has completely missed the point of the discussion. It's like saying Windows 11 and OS/2 are the same because they are both Operating Systems.

coliveira 5y ago
What you're missing is the level of comparison. Everything is different from everything else if you're looking only at differences. But if you want to classify concepts, you need to determine what are the similarities. So, yes, if you're talking about objects in the category of operating systems, W11 and OS/2 are in the same category. If you're looking at languages that offer high level constructs, C and Java are at the same level. Languages that offer only direct machine instructions (assembly) are at an inferior level.

loup-vaillant 5y ago

SQL is a special purpose language. Special purpose languages can be amazing (and SQL certainly is), but here we’re comparing general purpose languages. In this context, the question is more, are Lisp or Haskell, or Python 10 times as productive as C? I used to think so, but now I seriously doubt it. I mean, the reason I’m so much faster at writing small Python programs than I am at writing equivalent C programs, is because Python’s standard library is so damn huge. This is not a case of the language being more productive, this is a case of the work already being done.

pkolaczk 5y ago

If someone gave you a library of functions for doing table joins in C, it wouldn't take you much longer than those 2 minutes as well.