6 ms·

Is it? The UK had a global empire before the EU existed. I'm not suggesting we go back to colonising far off lands, but clearly a nation can be successful outsi

Is it? The UK had a global empire before the EU existed. I'm not suggesting we go back to colonising far off lands, but clearly a nation can be successful outside the EU (there a plenty of examples of that). What an absurd idea.

LatteLazy 5y ago
To clarify my metaphor... A person can absolutely be successful after losing a limb. But it's a lot easier if they haven't lost the limb. And when you lose a limb because of serious systemic issues (like the UK has) the chances of going on to be successful are... Dire. That's where the UK is. Success is entirely possible. And that's the faintest praise anyone can give isn't?
vanusa 5y ago
[There a plenty of examples of nations successful outside the EU] But not nations actually in, you know, Europe.
- native_samples 5y ago
  So, Switzerland is not successful? Norway isn't successful? The UK isn't successful? Of course there are such examples. Especially if you consider that it's not really clear what makes the EU "successful" in this argument.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    The UK is a non-example because that makes the argument circular. So I'll forget you mentioned it. Norway isn't successful? Norway is an outlier case, for obvious reasons. You could have also picked Albania, ex-Yugoslavia, Belarus, Ukraine in your list of proud EU dissenters but that wouldn't support your argument too well if you had, now would it? Of course there are such examples Just not "plenty" of them. Dear God, aren't debates on HN about basic world facts outright silly.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      You're the one who made the claim that there were no such examples, which is wrong. Now you're trying to come up with explanations for why those examples don't count or should be balanced against other countries. You're also putting quote marks around the word "plenty" although you never said that, your statement was absolute.
Kim_Bruning 5y ago
Many of the the (other) EU countries had global empires too. Fortunately or unfortunately the era of global colonialism has ended. Since we're all unlikely to be able to conquer large swaths of far-away continents anymore, we're kind of better off working together instead. The alternative is that there's just a bunch of tiny rump-states rusting away in a corner of the globe, pining for our former glory.
- native_samples 5y ago
  But countries can work together without being in the EU. In fact the EU's refusal to work with countries geographically close to Europe unless they totally submit to the will of the Commission on everything, is one of the factors most damaging to European cooperation. The EU is ideologically incapable of compromise, structurally incapable of working together on some things and not on others. Once upon a time it could do those things, but not for many years now.
  - Kim_Bruning 5y ago
    Can you provide some examples? As far as I know there are many countries that cooperate with the EU but are not a part of it, based on many levels of compromise. (This video proposes we replace the european flag's stars with asterisks for all the exceptions and compromises! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg ) In fact the UK took several of those types/levels of cooperation into consideration and rejected each. (Here's a quick video overview of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E )
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Many countries outside of Europe cooperate with it. Within Europe such non-EU controlled agreements are legacy and have been replaced over time with EU controlled institutions and agreements. The UK tried many times to come up with some sort of compromise agreement or continued collaboration on various topics, but the EU never accepted them, always with some statement about "cherry picking" or how "Europe is not a la carte". In other words, totalitarianism: either you obey us in all respects, or we don't work together on anything. In practice this was not a realistic policy position and the Commission has been forced into a series of reversals or dropping of its more extreme ideas especially around finance. But their position was clear at the time.

LatteLazy 5y ago

To clarify my metaphor... A person can absolutely be successful after losing a limb. But it's a lot easier if they haven't lost the limb. And when you lose a limb because of serious systemic issues (like the UK has) the chances of going on to be successful are... Dire. That's where the UK is. Success is entirely possible. And that's the faintest praise anyone can give isn't?

vanusa 5y ago

[There a plenty of examples of nations successful outside the EU] But not nations actually in, you know, Europe.

native_samples 5y ago
So, Switzerland is not successful? Norway isn't successful? The UK isn't successful? Of course there are such examples. Especially if you consider that it's not really clear what makes the EU "successful" in this argument.
- vanusa 5y ago
  The UK is a non-example because that makes the argument circular. So I'll forget you mentioned it. Norway isn't successful? Norway is an outlier case, for obvious reasons. You could have also picked Albania, ex-Yugoslavia, Belarus, Ukraine in your list of proud EU dissenters but that wouldn't support your argument too well if you had, now would it? Of course there are such examples Just not "plenty" of them. Dear God, aren't debates on HN about basic world facts outright silly.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    You're the one who made the claim that there were no such examples, which is wrong. Now you're trying to come up with explanations for why those examples don't count or should be balanced against other countries. You're also putting quote marks around the word "plenty" although you never said that, your statement was absolute.

Kim_Bruning 5y ago

Many of the the (other) EU countries had global empires too. Fortunately or unfortunately the era of global colonialism has ended. Since we're all unlikely to be able to conquer large swaths of far-away continents anymore, we're kind of better off working together instead. The alternative is that there's just a bunch of tiny rump-states rusting away in a corner of the globe, pining for our former glory.

native_samples 5y ago
But countries can work together without being in the EU. In fact the EU's refusal to work with countries geographically close to Europe unless they totally submit to the will of the Commission on everything, is one of the factors most damaging to European cooperation. The EU is ideologically incapable of compromise, structurally incapable of working together on some things and not on others. Once upon a time it could do those things, but not for many years now.
- Kim_Bruning 5y ago
  Can you provide some examples? As far as I know there are many countries that cooperate with the EU but are not a part of it, based on many levels of compromise. (This video proposes we replace the european flag's stars with asterisks for all the exceptions and compromises! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg ) In fact the UK took several of those types/levels of cooperation into consideration and rejected each. (Here's a quick video overview of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E )
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Many countries outside of Europe cooperate with it. Within Europe such non-EU controlled agreements are legacy and have been replaced over time with EU controlled institutions and agreements. The UK tried many times to come up with some sort of compromise agreement or continued collaboration on various topics, but the EU never accepted them, always with some statement about "cherry picking" or how "Europe is not a la carte". In other words, totalitarianism: either you obey us in all respects, or we don't work together on anything. In practice this was not a realistic policy position and the Commission has been forced into a series of reversals or dropping of its more extreme ideas especially around finance. But their position was clear at the time.