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Oh boy. Before anyone goes too far believing this paid consultant, you should really be surveying homeschooled children who are now adults. I say that because

Oh boy. Before anyone goes too far believing this paid consultant, you should really be surveying homeschooled children who are now adults. I say that because I'm a homeschooled child who is now an adult. From my immersion and circle of friends who were also homeschooled, these are my takeaways: Parents are untrustworthy proxies for their children's experiences. If you surveyed parents, they would all say that they kept their child socialized through homeschool groups. If you surveyed the children, they would strongly disagree. The point made in the ask HN "and have witnessed it to be very social" is the same one every homeschooling parent I've ever met makes, and pretty much every homeschooling child disagrees with. (And I've met a lot of homeschooling parents!) An astonishing number of homeschooled acquaintances I know have estranged themselves from their parents, and would cite their decision to homeschool as a factor in that decision (> 50%, n=~25.) Of the 5 children in my family, 4 cite homeschooling as a lingering negative that affects their social relationships to this day. 3 have forgiven my parents for it. The others still limit contact with them. (Siblings are all around their 30s.) Children who are still school aged are incredibly unwilling to insinuate that homeschooling doesn't work for fear of the consequences. If you see your parents devote their time to homeschooling you and are constantly saying stuff like "You'd think that homeschooling isn't social, but look! We found 5 other weird families that our children only pretend to like because they're desperate for a peer group, and they get along OK!" you would also be hesitant to say to your parents that they approach they've dedicated their life to makes you lonely. This is a decision, that, if you mess it up, you really mess it up. Be cautious interpreting a study that only asks parents their opinions, given by a consultant with a self-admitted homeschooling bias.

softwarebeware 5y ago
+1 to this. My wife was homeschooled her entire K-12 education and I was homeschooled for two grades. I did not have a favorable experience homeschooling and often wondered if it was just my particular family. My wife's more extensive experience (along with several friends) confirms the point. I've never met a homeschooled kid who thought that it was sufficient to provide the same level of social and emotional intelligence that they later experienced in the workforce from their public school peers.
- jopsen 5y ago
  Does homeschooling even have a fair shot at providing the same academic level?
  - david927 5y ago
    That question makes no sense. There is as much variance in homeschooling as there is in schools. This statement came up on Reddit last week, arguing that teaching has become glorified babysitting and the bullying and social maladjustment from schools is demanding alternatives: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rjl8fo/im_a_teacher_and_im_done https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rjl8fo/im_a_teach... Here's one anecdote: This is my first year teaching. My wife and I work at the same school. It literally drove her to a mental breakdown 8 days after our wedding. She’s turned in her notice. This year, I have been hit 2x by students, had my credit and debit card stolen (by students), been told to go fuck myself (ok, this is all by students), been spit at, called a bitch, etc. Half my students don’t bother turning in anything at all, and a record 10/80 of my students were suspended in ONE WEEK because they were fighting. I have had a student bring a gun to school, one student bring drugs with the intent to distribute, and one student have premeditated and intentional sex in a bathroom, who upon getting caught tried to claim it was rape (this was disproven due to her confessing things via text and to multiple students, we actually believed her at first). I teach middle school. This isn’t normal. I love when I get to teach, but this year makes me hate my job. I know I should stick it out since I enjoy teaching, but how the hell do I keep doing this?
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    Academic absolutely but social hell no
- Auracle 5y ago
  There have been quite a few times in my life that I’ve met someone, talked to them, thought “I wonder if they were homeschooled,” and later had that thought confirmed. As far as social skills go there’s no substitute for going through the wringer that is school. You deal with so much on a daily basis - forming new friendships, maintaining old ones, crushes, rejection, doing stupid things you’ll regret forever, personal social triumphs… It’s all a bit much, but in a culture where almost everyone has done it the few that didn’t stand out.
actfrench 5y ago
That's a good idea! But where did you get the idea that I'm a "consultant?" Also, a big blocker to families choosing alternative education is fear that their children won't have positive social experiences, so it's helpful to get social proof that other parents in their situation are having positive social experiences.
- molyss 5y ago
  I think the parent was talking about themselves being a "paid consultant", not the OP
- throwaway10203 5y ago
  I described you as a consultant because your business involves consulting families who are looking for schooling options. "I run a company that helps families interested in designing their child's education as a replacement or supplement to traditional school."
- phil21 5y ago
  You said you were a consultant in your initial introduction, at least that's what I concluded as well. As someone who had a very diverse primary education including 6 years of homeschooling, I can tell you OP here is very on the money. Without going anonymous I won't go into much further anecdote, but I can tell they actually experienced the lifestyle. Maybe there are some "well adjusted and normal" home school groups out there, but I never encountered one. When you talk to these parents you will only get the social proof they want to hear - the parents are absolutely having positive social experiences. Perhaps delusionally so. Especially the types of folks drawn to home schooling to begin with. I'm not saying it can't be done - but that blocker should be big because it's often simply talked around and the parents saying their kids were well-socialized often are saying it only from their perspective. I too, have seen much more estrangement from parents from my home schooled vs. other friends and it's not remotely close. I think it's primarily a form of self-selection. Perhaps the pool of parents selecting to homeschool after COVID has changed considerably since prior to it, but I'm skeptical. It takes an exceedingly exceptional and dedicated parent (and probably child) for this to work out in the end. There are anecdotes out there, but they typically to be of the "very upper class" kind where a kid is exposed to university level educators at a very young age.
actfrench 5y ago
It's a really interesting idea to survey teens or kids. One of the challenges with homeschooling is that parents are often the decision makers, but kids are the users. I think that parents often need social proof to make decisions, so seeing what their peers think might help them make a better informed decisions. So I find it helpful to survey parents and compare their experiences, since they're the ones (at least in younger ages) who will decide. I imagine surveying kids would have some legal issues involved, and I'd probably have to get parent permission, which might impact the results as well. And depending on the ages of the children, different questions would be necessary to get at accurate data. I definitely need to think about this further. Thanks so much for taking the time for the feedback. Though again, not a paid consultant:) You can check out my projects here: modulo.app, schoolclosures.org, masteryhour.org
- throwaway10203 5y ago
  If the parents all say the same thing, then you will have social proof, but it will be wrong. You must, regardless of the hurdles, find a way to survey children or graduated children. When parents find out that their child was not socialized, despite their strong belief to the contrary, they will be left with children who no longer wish to be around them. You can easily design a study to steer people to homeschooling, by only asking the parents. They have too much invested in being alternative education experts and it's hard to admit that you played around and messed up with how you schooled your children. If homeschooling turn out ok, the upside is that a child will have a maybe slightly better educational experience. If homeschooling turns out to not be ok, the downside is that you will permanently damage parent-child relationships. You're playing with fire by even attempting this study, the way you have it set up right now.
kar5pt 5y ago
Yes, I was never homeschooled, but my first reaction to this was "why are you surveying the parents and not the kids"?
w1 5y ago
+1 to this. I was homeschooled K-8, and the loneliness I experienced then puts a significant strain on my relationship with my parents to this day. I think I agree with the parent comment when I say that homeschooling seems to be looking for pennies of potential academic advantage in front of the steamroller of serious maladjustment.
- marttt 5y ago
  Do you think you have also gained something from that loneliness? Better abilities for introspection, for example, or some particular thinking patterns that other people seem to lack?
  - w1 5y ago
    Great question. I think the most noticeable impact on my personality is a strong fear of being alone, which has led to me sometimes prioritizing my relationships over personal achievements. I regretted this impulse when I was younger, but I have come to appreciate it now. This also gave me a “growth mindset” at an early age. I realized in ~9th grade that I had no idea how to hold a conversation with someone, which forced me to view my social skills as something dynamic which could be improved. People are now very surprised to hear I was homeschooled, so I think my efforts to improve my communication skills have born fruit. I can only speculate on how much the rest of my current personality was influenced by that experience; either directly, or from secondary effects like reading a lot (in place of socializing) at an early age.
    - w1 5y ago
      That all said, these are potential positive consequences, observed in retrospect, from what was an extended adverse and painful event. I have been very fortunate with my outcome, but nearly all of my friends and family members who were homeschooled were have had serious issues, ranging from mild maladjustment to suicide. If anyone is seriously considering homeschooling and wants to hear a contrary opinion, please feel free to send me an email :)
refurb 5y ago
Agreed, but it’s also not unusual for children to blame early life experiences for some challenge they face later on. I had a great upbringing but if you asked my older sister it was terrible and of course our parents are too blame.

softwarebeware 5y ago

+1 to this. My wife was homeschooled her entire K-12 education and I was homeschooled for two grades. I did not have a favorable experience homeschooling and often wondered if it was just my particular family. My wife's more extensive experience (along with several friends) confirms the point. I've never met a homeschooled kid who thought that it was sufficient to provide the same level of social and emotional intelligence that they later experienced in the workforce from their public school peers.

jopsen 5y ago
Does homeschooling even have a fair shot at providing the same academic level?
- david927 5y ago
  That question makes no sense. There is as much variance in homeschooling as there is in schools. This statement came up on Reddit last week, arguing that teaching has become glorified babysitting and the bullying and social maladjustment from schools is demanding alternatives: https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rjl8fo/im_a_teacher_and_im_done https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/rjl8fo/im_a_teach... Here's one anecdote: This is my first year teaching. My wife and I work at the same school. It literally drove her to a mental breakdown 8 days after our wedding. She’s turned in her notice. This year, I have been hit 2x by students, had my credit and debit card stolen (by students), been told to go fuck myself (ok, this is all by students), been spit at, called a bitch, etc. Half my students don’t bother turning in anything at all, and a record 10/80 of my students were suspended in ONE WEEK because they were fighting. I have had a student bring a gun to school, one student bring drugs with the intent to distribute, and one student have premeditated and intentional sex in a bathroom, who upon getting caught tried to claim it was rape (this was disproven due to her confessing things via text and to multiple students, we actually believed her at first). I teach middle school. This isn’t normal. I love when I get to teach, but this year makes me hate my job. I know I should stick it out since I enjoy teaching, but how the hell do I keep doing this?
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Academic absolutely but social hell no
Auracle 5y ago
There have been quite a few times in my life that I’ve met someone, talked to them, thought “I wonder if they were homeschooled,” and later had that thought confirmed. As far as social skills go there’s no substitute for going through the wringer that is school. You deal with so much on a daily basis - forming new friendships, maintaining old ones, crushes, rejection, doing stupid things you’ll regret forever, personal social triumphs… It’s all a bit much, but in a culture where almost everyone has done it the few that didn’t stand out.

actfrench 5y ago

That's a good idea! But where did you get the idea that I'm a "consultant?" Also, a big blocker to families choosing alternative education is fear that their children won't have positive social experiences, so it's helpful to get social proof that other parents in their situation are having positive social experiences.

molyss 5y ago
I think the parent was talking about themselves being a "paid consultant", not the OP
throwaway10203 5y ago
I described you as a consultant because your business involves consulting families who are looking for schooling options. "I run a company that helps families interested in designing their child's education as a replacement or supplement to traditional school."
phil21 5y ago
You said you were a consultant in your initial introduction, at least that's what I concluded as well. As someone who had a very diverse primary education including 6 years of homeschooling, I can tell you OP here is very on the money. Without going anonymous I won't go into much further anecdote, but I can tell they actually experienced the lifestyle. Maybe there are some "well adjusted and normal" home school groups out there, but I never encountered one. When you talk to these parents you will only get the social proof they want to hear - the parents are absolutely having positive social experiences. Perhaps delusionally so. Especially the types of folks drawn to home schooling to begin with. I'm not saying it can't be done - but that blocker should be big because it's often simply talked around and the parents saying their kids were well-socialized often are saying it only from their perspective. I too, have seen much more estrangement from parents from my home schooled vs. other friends and it's not remotely close. I think it's primarily a form of self-selection. Perhaps the pool of parents selecting to homeschool after COVID has changed considerably since prior to it, but I'm skeptical. It takes an exceedingly exceptional and dedicated parent (and probably child) for this to work out in the end. There are anecdotes out there, but they typically to be of the "very upper class" kind where a kid is exposed to university level educators at a very young age.

actfrench 5y ago

It's a really interesting idea to survey teens or kids. One of the challenges with homeschooling is that parents are often the decision makers, but kids are the users. I think that parents often need social proof to make decisions, so seeing what their peers think might help them make a better informed decisions. So I find it helpful to survey parents and compare their experiences, since they're the ones (at least in younger ages) who will decide. I imagine surveying kids would have some legal issues involved, and I'd probably have to get parent permission, which might impact the results as well. And depending on the ages of the children, different questions would be necessary to get at accurate data. I definitely need to think about this further. Thanks so much for taking the time for the feedback. Though again, not a paid consultant:) You can check out my projects here: modulo.app, schoolclosures.org, masteryhour.org

throwaway10203 5y ago
If the parents all say the same thing, then you will have social proof, but it will be wrong. You must, regardless of the hurdles, find a way to survey children or graduated children. When parents find out that their child was not socialized, despite their strong belief to the contrary, they will be left with children who no longer wish to be around them. You can easily design a study to steer people to homeschooling, by only asking the parents. They have too much invested in being alternative education experts and it's hard to admit that you played around and messed up with how you schooled your children. If homeschooling turn out ok, the upside is that a child will have a maybe slightly better educational experience. If homeschooling turns out to not be ok, the downside is that you will permanently damage parent-child relationships. You're playing with fire by even attempting this study, the way you have it set up right now.

kar5pt 5y ago

Yes, I was never homeschooled, but my first reaction to this was "why are you surveying the parents and not the kids"?

w1 5y ago

+1 to this. I was homeschooled K-8, and the loneliness I experienced then puts a significant strain on my relationship with my parents to this day. I think I agree with the parent comment when I say that homeschooling seems to be looking for pennies of potential academic advantage in front of the steamroller of serious maladjustment.

marttt 5y ago
Do you think you have also gained something from that loneliness? Better abilities for introspection, for example, or some particular thinking patterns that other people seem to lack?
- w1 5y ago
  Great question. I think the most noticeable impact on my personality is a strong fear of being alone, which has led to me sometimes prioritizing my relationships over personal achievements. I regretted this impulse when I was younger, but I have come to appreciate it now. This also gave me a “growth mindset” at an early age. I realized in ~9th grade that I had no idea how to hold a conversation with someone, which forced me to view my social skills as something dynamic which could be improved. People are now very surprised to hear I was homeschooled, so I think my efforts to improve my communication skills have born fruit. I can only speculate on how much the rest of my current personality was influenced by that experience; either directly, or from secondary effects like reading a lot (in place of socializing) at an early age.
  - w1 5y ago
    That all said, these are potential positive consequences, observed in retrospect, from what was an extended adverse and painful event. I have been very fortunate with my outcome, but nearly all of my friends and family members who were homeschooled were have had serious issues, ranging from mild maladjustment to suicide. If anyone is seriously considering homeschooling and wants to hear a contrary opinion, please feel free to send me an email :)

refurb 5y ago

Agreed, but it’s also not unusual for children to blame early life experiences for some challenge they face later on. I had a great upbringing but if you asked my older sister it was terrible and of course our parents are too blame.