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Strong atheism of the sort you profess is religious in my opinion. It may or may not be spiritual, depending on its flavour. You don't sound like a God hating a

Strong atheism of the sort you profess is religious in my opinion. It may or may not be spiritual, depending on its flavour. You don't sound like a God hating atheist (which is definitely spiritual).

msla 5y ago
I strongly disbelieve that I'm a murderer. I have no memory of committing homicide, and I would vigorously defend myself were I to be accused of such. Is that a religious belief, too?
autopilot23 5y ago
I don't understand this comment. How is it exactly religious?
- scandox 5y ago
  There are many kinds of Atheism. I have met people to whom the very idea of God was just a weird thing they heard of once and thought was kind of cute or whatever but a matter of genuine indifference to them. On the other hand we have the parent comment which professes a strong Atheism. A little bit of analysis on it shows I think a strong emotional and philosophical attachment to the importance of their own disbelief as a system of thought and a way of life in opposition to another system. > 100% atheism. Was raised some kind of protestant I forget which one He forgets which one? Either he really wasn't raised in it at all or more likely he wants to emphasize his contempt for it by "forgetting" what it even was. Religion is "absolute nonsense" and "laughable" - twice. He derives "tremendous spiritual and psychological relief" in an alternate way of looking at things. > As an atheist I was suddenly responsible for making my own moral judgements and conclusions (I had to decide upon my own objective basis for making moral judgements) He has developed an entirely new personal system of moral values - based on what? It's just an implicit religious system based on our current secular politics. > forgiveness was something I had to work towards myself (as in I had to forgive myself for things, which is not easy, but is incredibly rewarding) versus simply getting it for free from some nonexistent deity. All in all, was an incredibly positive change in my life, and I do believe He's worked some pretty uniquely Christian ethics about personal forgiveness into it too. This stuff isn't universal. > there can be a weird sort of spirituality to 100% atheism that people don't really acknowledge. Exactly right.
  - yibg 5y ago
    Seems like you're overloading the word religious to mean an idea that someone holds either very strongly, has a philosophical component or believes on faith (e.g. insufficient evidence or not thoroughly examined). All of this could be true, but that's not really religion. As defined, religion is "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.". Nothing about a strongly held belief, even one lacking evidence, makes it religious.
yibg 5y ago
I hear this sentiment quite a bit but I don't understand still. Can you explain a bit why (strongly) not believing in a deity is religious? I can hate God, because for instance I think religious belief has done a lot of harm, but how does that make my stance a religious one?
- cogman10 5y ago
  Honestly, I take this as not hating god but rather hating the belief in god. I don't hate god anymore than I hate leprechauns.
  - yibg 5y ago
    That’s true of course and maybe is just an artifact of imprecise language. Of course I can’t hate a physical thing that I don’t think exists, but I can hate the concept of it. When people say “God hating atheist” I assume they mean an atheist that hates the concept of god. I still fail to see how that’s religious though.
    - luxpir 5y ago
      Because a) it's not as much based around a hatred of anything, more a worldview that refuses to resign the mysterious to the supernatural, b) because when you make the call that you must be atheist, given your world view, you are forced to question your position on morality and where you stand in society, humanity and indeed the universe. Nothing is hand waved away and you are now wholly responsible for your own definitions of these things, and the potential alienation that may result. I can see how there is overlap between spirituality and atheism, as there's no need for a god or belief in most of the subjects that seem to fall under spirituality. Especially when we exist in a universe, the chances of which even existing are infinitesimally minute, that is so breathtaking that most of us have resorted to filling in the knowledge gaps of how and why with best guesses. It is so wondrous that, god or not, you can feel plenty spiritual just experiencing it. Whether personal spirituality should be your life's focus when there's so much at play on Earth, however, is another question.
cogman10 5y ago
There is, frankly, no such thing as a "god hating atheist". Those two notions are incompatible. Consider, for example, how little you (probably) care about fairies. Are you a fairy hating afairist? You may find an Atheist that says something like "If god does exist, it's a dick". but that's not really hating god but rather pointing out the silliness of believing in a supernatural all powerful being that is good which allows evil to happen. IE, the problem of evil.
- scandox 5y ago
  There are God hating atheists. What I refer to are people who were raised within a powerful belief system. Their atheism is powerfully and emotionally reactive against that belief system and it's ultimate symbol. They profess not to believe in that God but much of their own thought system revolves in a negative sense around it. Edit: Just a note that the specific term "God Hating Atheist" I take from John Gray's book Seven Types of Atheism.
  - kup0 5y ago
    I think it's a reasonable response for atheists that were raised in these systems to have this strong negative reaction to that prior belief system. This "hate", however, is not directed toward an entity this atheist thinks exists. The type of atheist you describe hates the concept of "god" that their prior belief system constructed. When one comes out of a system that one feels they were duped by for 20+ years (in my case), sure, I retain a powerful, strong, negative reaction to that system and its concept of god. It does not mean that my disbelief in this god is equivalent to some kind of "religiousness" and to suggest that I think is incredibly naive
- alecbz 5y ago
  For many formerly religious people God was very "real" as a force they thought existed and had an effect on them, and I think it's quite possible to feel hate towards that God and what he represents, even if you no longer thinks he literally exists.
- lab14 5y ago
  A little off topic, but it's mesmerizing to me to see hordes of intelligent people, completely renouncing to reason and talking to imaginary entities.
opportune 5y ago
Please explain how being a god-hating atheist is spiritual I think if god-hating atheists do exist it’s an inherent contradiction. Perhaps you are confusing people who practice “satanism” mostly as a way to troll religious people as god-hating. There are definitely anti-religion atheists but I don’t see how that is spiritual.
- aristofun 5y ago
  > Please explain how being a god-hating atheist is spiritual To hate god, firstly you have to admit his existence in one way or another. Hence, spirituality, even with "minus" sign.
  - opportune 5y ago
    No offense, but this seems like more of how a religious person understands atheism than what atheists actually think. A religious person may perceive an atheist as “god hating” when they are merely “religion hating” or perhaps making fun of your god/the existence of a god.
    - aristofun 5y ago
      No, it's just simple logic. If you hate something that doesn't exist, your are either making no sense or must imply the existence (in some form). Think about it deeply.
      - yibg 5y ago
        “God hating atheists” don’t hate the actual God, it doesn’t exist. The hate is directed toward the concept of god, which is definitely real.
        aristofun 5y ago
        But what's actual difference between God and concept of God? This is rethorical question, 'cause there is no easy answer, and yet my original statement is valid. In this case god-hating atheists confirm the existence of god in the form of 'concept' you may say.
analog31 5y ago
I think the problem of strongly asserting nonexistence is purely a puzzle of logic or language. We lack terminology and language for something that is, informally, in between strict existence and non-existence, such as things that are proposed without evidence but taken seriously. I've been thinking about this since reading about things like faster-than-light travel, and the singularity. Then the question is whether it's useful to assign a third category, or just to combine it with one of the original two categories. My own feeling is that strong versus weak atheism is not a useful distinction.

Strong atheism of the sort you profess is religious in my opinion. It may or may not be spiritual, depending on its flavour. You don't sound like a God hating atheist (which is definitely spiritual).

msla 5y ago

I strongly disbelieve that I'm a murderer. I have no memory of committing homicide, and I would vigorously defend myself were I to be accused of such. Is that a religious belief, too?

autopilot23 5y ago

I don't understand this comment. How is it exactly religious?

scandox 5y ago
There are many kinds of Atheism. I have met people to whom the very idea of God was just a weird thing they heard of once and thought was kind of cute or whatever but a matter of genuine indifference to them. On the other hand we have the parent comment which professes a strong Atheism. A little bit of analysis on it shows I think a strong emotional and philosophical attachment to the importance of their own disbelief as a system of thought and a way of life in opposition to another system. > 100% atheism. Was raised some kind of protestant I forget which one He forgets which one? Either he really wasn't raised in it at all or more likely he wants to emphasize his contempt for it by "forgetting" what it even was. Religion is "absolute nonsense" and "laughable" - twice. He derives "tremendous spiritual and psychological relief" in an alternate way of looking at things. > As an atheist I was suddenly responsible for making my own moral judgements and conclusions (I had to decide upon my own objective basis for making moral judgements) He has developed an entirely new personal system of moral values - based on what? It's just an implicit religious system based on our current secular politics. > forgiveness was something I had to work towards myself (as in I had to forgive myself for things, which is not easy, but is incredibly rewarding) versus simply getting it for free from some nonexistent deity. All in all, was an incredibly positive change in my life, and I do believe He's worked some pretty uniquely Christian ethics about personal forgiveness into it too. This stuff isn't universal. > there can be a weird sort of spirituality to 100% atheism that people don't really acknowledge. Exactly right.
- yibg 5y ago
  Seems like you're overloading the word religious to mean an idea that someone holds either very strongly, has a philosophical component or believes on faith (e.g. insufficient evidence or not thoroughly examined). All of this could be true, but that's not really religion. As defined, religion is "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.". Nothing about a strongly held belief, even one lacking evidence, makes it religious.

yibg 5y ago

I hear this sentiment quite a bit but I don't understand still. Can you explain a bit why (strongly) not believing in a deity is religious? I can hate God, because for instance I think religious belief has done a lot of harm, but how does that make my stance a religious one?

cogman10 5y ago
Honestly, I take this as not hating god but rather hating the belief in god. I don't hate god anymore than I hate leprechauns.
- yibg 5y ago
  That’s true of course and maybe is just an artifact of imprecise language. Of course I can’t hate a physical thing that I don’t think exists, but I can hate the concept of it. When people say “God hating atheist” I assume they mean an atheist that hates the concept of god. I still fail to see how that’s religious though.
  - luxpir 5y ago
    Because a) it's not as much based around a hatred of anything, more a worldview that refuses to resign the mysterious to the supernatural, b) because when you make the call that you must be atheist, given your world view, you are forced to question your position on morality and where you stand in society, humanity and indeed the universe. Nothing is hand waved away and you are now wholly responsible for your own definitions of these things, and the potential alienation that may result. I can see how there is overlap between spirituality and atheism, as there's no need for a god or belief in most of the subjects that seem to fall under spirituality. Especially when we exist in a universe, the chances of which even existing are infinitesimally minute, that is so breathtaking that most of us have resorted to filling in the knowledge gaps of how and why with best guesses. It is so wondrous that, god or not, you can feel plenty spiritual just experiencing it. Whether personal spirituality should be your life's focus when there's so much at play on Earth, however, is another question.

cogman10 5y ago

There is, frankly, no such thing as a "god hating atheist". Those two notions are incompatible. Consider, for example, how little you (probably) care about fairies. Are you a fairy hating afairist? You may find an Atheist that says something like "If god does exist, it's a dick". but that's not really hating god but rather pointing out the silliness of believing in a supernatural all powerful being that is good which allows evil to happen. IE, the problem of evil.

scandox 5y ago
There are God hating atheists. What I refer to are people who were raised within a powerful belief system. Their atheism is powerfully and emotionally reactive against that belief system and it's ultimate symbol. They profess not to believe in that God but much of their own thought system revolves in a negative sense around it. Edit: Just a note that the specific term "God Hating Atheist" I take from John Gray's book Seven Types of Atheism.
- kup0 5y ago
  I think it's a reasonable response for atheists that were raised in these systems to have this strong negative reaction to that prior belief system. This "hate", however, is not directed toward an entity this atheist thinks exists. The type of atheist you describe hates the concept of "god" that their prior belief system constructed. When one comes out of a system that one feels they were duped by for 20+ years (in my case), sure, I retain a powerful, strong, negative reaction to that system and its concept of god. It does not mean that my disbelief in this god is equivalent to some kind of "religiousness" and to suggest that I think is incredibly naive
alecbz 5y ago
For many formerly religious people God was very "real" as a force they thought existed and had an effect on them, and I think it's quite possible to feel hate towards that God and what he represents, even if you no longer thinks he literally exists.
lab14 5y ago
A little off topic, but it's mesmerizing to me to see hordes of intelligent people, completely renouncing to reason and talking to imaginary entities.

opportune 5y ago

Please explain how being a god-hating atheist is spiritual I think if god-hating atheists do exist it’s an inherent contradiction. Perhaps you are confusing people who practice “satanism” mostly as a way to troll religious people as god-hating. There are definitely anti-religion atheists but I don’t see how that is spiritual.

aristofun 5y ago
> Please explain how being a god-hating atheist is spiritual To hate god, firstly you have to admit his existence in one way or another. Hence, spirituality, even with "minus" sign.
- opportune 5y ago
  No offense, but this seems like more of how a religious person understands atheism than what atheists actually think. A religious person may perceive an atheist as “god hating” when they are merely “religion hating” or perhaps making fun of your god/the existence of a god.
  - aristofun 5y ago
    No, it's just simple logic. If you hate something that doesn't exist, your are either making no sense or must imply the existence (in some form). Think about it deeply.
    - yibg 5y ago
      “God hating atheists” don’t hate the actual God, it doesn’t exist. The hate is directed toward the concept of god, which is definitely real.
      - aristofun 5y ago
        But what's actual difference between God and concept of God? This is rethorical question, 'cause there is no easy answer, and yet my original statement is valid. In this case god-hating atheists confirm the existence of god in the form of 'concept' you may say.

analog31 5y ago

I think the problem of strongly asserting nonexistence is purely a puzzle of logic or language. We lack terminology and language for something that is, informally, in between strict existence and non-existence, such as things that are proposed without evidence but taken seriously. I've been thinking about this since reading about things like faster-than-light travel, and the singularity. Then the question is whether it's useful to assign a third category, or just to combine it with one of the original two categories. My own feeling is that strong versus weak atheism is not a useful distinction.