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I'm not usually a Joe Rogan listener, but I keep thinking about the interview he did with Carl Hart: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4xMbq7gLEjFioOQ5gpSw2l htt

by qntty 5y ago

I'm not usually a Joe Rogan listener, but I keep thinking about the interview he did with Carl Hart: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4xMbq7gLEjFioOQ5gpSw2l https://open.spotify.com/episode/4xMbq7gLEjFioOQ5gpSw2l Hart claims that the inherent addictiveness of even the most addictive drugs (he talks mostly about heroin) is exaggerated, because most of the worst addicts are dealing with psychological, social, and financial difficulties in addition to drug addiction, and drugs are often unfairly blamed for all their problems. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but he has a very interesting perspective.

spurgu 5y ago
Personal anecdote. I tried (smoking) heroin once, out of curiosity, and I beg to disagree. It was really nice and calming. Then 30 minutes laters I got the urge and wanted more. Then felt nice again. Then 20 minutes later I wanted more. Then 10 minutes later. Then 5. Then the bag was empty and I felt like crap. Then the car wouldn't start and we had to push it to jump start - felt like one of the most physically demanding things I've ever done. If you were to shoot it in the vein those effects would be exacerbated to a point I can't even imagine what the cravings and after-effects would be like. Granted I might not have been in the best state of mind back then, but still. It's by far the most addictive (short-term) substance I've ever tried. I still use others irregularly but that one I'll never touch again.
- avgDev 5y ago
  I have taken opiates for pain, and first time I took it I also experienced calm and euphoria. However, it only lasted the first few doses. I would quickly need to up the dosage to feel the same effects. I can see how someone could really start doing more and more to get that effect. However, if you are taking only the prescribed dosage I would argue that the risk is quite low for severe addiction, but you would still have dependence and would need to ween off. You would just need to fight the "need" urge you experienced and be conscious about the correct usage. If I took a few days/weeks off and taken it again I would get the same calming and euphoric effect but again it would quickly wear off and would require higher dosage to get it, but the pain was controlled at the same dosage. The whole opiate epidemic really fked anyone with chronic pain for who SSRIs don't work.
- qntty 5y ago
  I've heard a couple different stories about trying drugs like heroin. Some say that they felt addicted immediately, some say it takes a while. Then there's Carl Hart who says that he has occasionally done heroin for years without developing an addiction and he knows others like him. If I had to guess, I'd say that there's a significant minority of people who can do addictive drugs without getting addicted and it's probably related to genetics. Maybe it has something to do with sensitivity to pain and executive function. Either way, I don't plan on ever trying anything like that myself. I suspect that I'd be one of the unlucky ones.
  - spurgu 5y ago
    This is highly plausible. Nicotine addiction seems to differ from individual to individual as well. I know people who smoke for years, then just one day decide to quit and do it without any issues[0] and stay off it for a couple of months or years and then start again, or not. Me personally I go insane within 12-24 hours of abstinence (massive anxiety/frustration) and it requires an enormous amount of willpower to get past the 48-72 hours until it starts to ease. [0] They mostly cite the "habit" being hard to break
    - conductr 5y ago
      Most of my family growing up were smokers and always trying/going to quit. What always amazed me is many times one of them would quit for like a week or two, it was hell for them, then they’d just pick it back up saying it was just too hard. I’d think the hard part was over but then I always connected it to the social part smoking and the having something to do with their hands aspect. There’s something else besides the nicotine addiction that’s hard to kick.
- wbsss4412 5y ago
  The thesis isn’t that drugs aren’t inherently addictive at all, it’s that the addictiveness (which I’m defining as the degree to which it is difficult for people to stop using) is estimated to be higher than the inherent addictive properties of the drug would actually imply. It’s not to say that the drugs don’t cause cravings, it’s that people without the aforementioned issues have a much more straightforward ability to manage those cravings.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Yes but what was your life like when you smoked heroin for the first time? Were you economically comfortable, employed, married, had kids, had a strong social network, had strong ties to institutions in your community?
  - spurgu 5y ago
    None of the above. Now it's pretty much all of the above. Maybe I should try heroin again. For science! Edit: Seriously though, at that time I also tried/used a number of other substances and none of them were anywhere remotely close in the terms of "needing to get another fix soon". Edit2: I subscribe to the idea that it's largely individual. I might be a lazy enough person that the calmness of heroin speaks to me, while I can keep my distance to coke or amphetamines? Or some explanation beyond that. In reality the interplay is likely a lot more complex than that.
- MivLives 5y ago
  There's different types of drug users. Almost everyone I knew whose done heroin was a polydrug addict. Some would quit but switch to another drug. One of them came out of rehab for heroin and started injecting cocaine. They were all running from something. It could be fear of the future (what do you do if nothing interests you in college, you're depressed and nothing sounds like a good path forward), or it could be other untreated mental disorders. Only one person I knew who was doing it back then got out a live. They were a weird case where they were getting a phd in neuroscience, a die hard Neon Genesis Evangelion fan, and I'd seen them bump a 2c in public more then once. Most of the rest when I heard about the OD I wasn't surprised, and the lingering question of if it was intentional or not sorta floated unspoken among the survivors. The deaths sorta came one right after another as their support group were all other users who unraveled as parts of the group fell away.
m_ke 5y ago
A few related things that I just watched last night: Opioid Tragedy: Inside the Fentanyl Crisis | Ten Dollar Death Trip | ENDEVR Documentary: https://youtu.be/Dfv_tISYl8A https://youtu.be/Dfv_tISYl8A The Solution to the Opioid Crisis | Joe Rogan & Johann Hari: https://youtu.be/vVMN3DgcRYk https://youtu.be/vVMN3DgcRYk

by qntty 5y ago

spurgu 5y ago

Personal anecdote. I tried (smoking) heroin once, out of curiosity, and I beg to disagree. It was really nice and calming. Then 30 minutes laters I got the urge and wanted more. Then felt nice again. Then 20 minutes later I wanted more. Then 10 minutes later. Then 5. Then the bag was empty and I felt like crap. Then the car wouldn't start and we had to push it to jump start - felt like one of the most physically demanding things I've ever done. If you were to shoot it in the vein those effects would be exacerbated to a point I can't even imagine what the cravings and after-effects would be like. Granted I might not have been in the best state of mind back then, but still. It's by far the most addictive (short-term) substance I've ever tried. I still use others irregularly but that one I'll never touch again.

avgDev 5y ago
I have taken opiates for pain, and first time I took it I also experienced calm and euphoria. However, it only lasted the first few doses. I would quickly need to up the dosage to feel the same effects. I can see how someone could really start doing more and more to get that effect. However, if you are taking only the prescribed dosage I would argue that the risk is quite low for severe addiction, but you would still have dependence and would need to ween off. You would just need to fight the "need" urge you experienced and be conscious about the correct usage. If I took a few days/weeks off and taken it again I would get the same calming and euphoric effect but again it would quickly wear off and would require higher dosage to get it, but the pain was controlled at the same dosage. The whole opiate epidemic really fked anyone with chronic pain for who SSRIs don't work.
qntty 5y ago
I've heard a couple different stories about trying drugs like heroin. Some say that they felt addicted immediately, some say it takes a while. Then there's Carl Hart who says that he has occasionally done heroin for years without developing an addiction and he knows others like him. If I had to guess, I'd say that there's a significant minority of people who can do addictive drugs without getting addicted and it's probably related to genetics. Maybe it has something to do with sensitivity to pain and executive function. Either way, I don't plan on ever trying anything like that myself. I suspect that I'd be one of the unlucky ones.
- spurgu 5y ago
  This is highly plausible. Nicotine addiction seems to differ from individual to individual as well. I know people who smoke for years, then just one day decide to quit and do it without any issues[0] and stay off it for a couple of months or years and then start again, or not. Me personally I go insane within 12-24 hours of abstinence (massive anxiety/frustration) and it requires an enormous amount of willpower to get past the 48-72 hours until it starts to ease. [0] They mostly cite the "habit" being hard to break
  - conductr 5y ago
    Most of my family growing up were smokers and always trying/going to quit. What always amazed me is many times one of them would quit for like a week or two, it was hell for them, then they’d just pick it back up saying it was just too hard. I’d think the hard part was over but then I always connected it to the social part smoking and the having something to do with their hands aspect. There’s something else besides the nicotine addiction that’s hard to kick.
wbsss4412 5y ago
The thesis isn’t that drugs aren’t inherently addictive at all, it’s that the addictiveness (which I’m defining as the degree to which it is difficult for people to stop using) is estimated to be higher than the inherent addictive properties of the drug would actually imply. It’s not to say that the drugs don’t cause cravings, it’s that people without the aforementioned issues have a much more straightforward ability to manage those cravings.
spoonjim 5y ago
Yes but what was your life like when you smoked heroin for the first time? Were you economically comfortable, employed, married, had kids, had a strong social network, had strong ties to institutions in your community?
- spurgu 5y ago
  None of the above. Now it's pretty much all of the above. Maybe I should try heroin again. For science! Edit: Seriously though, at that time I also tried/used a number of other substances and none of them were anywhere remotely close in the terms of "needing to get another fix soon". Edit2: I subscribe to the idea that it's largely individual. I might be a lazy enough person that the calmness of heroin speaks to me, while I can keep my distance to coke or amphetamines? Or some explanation beyond that. In reality the interplay is likely a lot more complex than that.
MivLives 5y ago
There's different types of drug users. Almost everyone I knew whose done heroin was a polydrug addict. Some would quit but switch to another drug. One of them came out of rehab for heroin and started injecting cocaine. They were all running from something. It could be fear of the future (what do you do if nothing interests you in college, you're depressed and nothing sounds like a good path forward), or it could be other untreated mental disorders. Only one person I knew who was doing it back then got out a live. They were a weird case where they were getting a phd in neuroscience, a die hard Neon Genesis Evangelion fan, and I'd seen them bump a 2c in public more then once. Most of the rest when I heard about the OD I wasn't surprised, and the lingering question of if it was intentional or not sorta floated unspoken among the survivors. The deaths sorta came one right after another as their support group were all other users who unraveled as parts of the group fell away.

m_ke 5y ago

A few related things that I just watched last night: Opioid Tragedy: Inside the Fentanyl Crisis | Ten Dollar Death Trip | ENDEVR Documentary: https://youtu.be/Dfv_tISYl8A https://youtu.be/Dfv_tISYl8A The Solution to the Opioid Crisis | Joe Rogan & Johann Hari: https://youtu.be/vVMN3DgcRYk https://youtu.be/vVMN3DgcRYk