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Sigh. Not this discussion again. Also it's the guardian, may as well post a telegraph article that says the exact opposite. My take on it: when money is invol

Sigh. Not this discussion again. Also it's the guardian, may as well post a telegraph article that says the exact opposite. My take on it: when money is involved, humans are excellent at optimising those systems. Look at the lengths and success of people/companies go through to minimise paying tax. What I'm trying to say is that we'll be fine once the existing systems are optimised for us not being in the EU. Obviously we're in the adjustment period, and I feel sorry for the people struggling with that.

zarzavat 5y ago
There's nothing optimal or rational about international trade. It's full of the most vocal minorities screwing things up for everyone else (and sometimes themselves, see fishermen voting for Brexit). That's why trade agreements are usually negotiated in secret, to protect the parties from themselves. In 20 years when the coalition of bigots and reactionaries and profiteers that gave us this mess have expired, we might be able to return to something resembling a rational arrangement. Or not, perhaps we will slip further and further into oblivion such as Russia did after the USSR.
- pydry 5y ago
  >That's why trade agreements are usually negotiated in secret The last deal I saw negotiated in secret and then leaked (TPP) ended up being a corporate wishlist that benefitted nobody except large companies. The most absurd part was that it was more about extending copyright and setting up extra-judicial courts than dropping tarriffs yet they still called it a "free trade deal". Fortunate that it was leaked otherwise this abortion of a deal would have passed.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  > In 20 years when the coalition of bigots I was willing to listen to your argument up to this point. Throwing the "everyone who I disagree with is a bigot" around is very old hat at this point.
  - d1sxeyes 5y ago
    I definitely would not say that everyone who voted to leave the EU is a bigot, but it's fairly undeniable that a lot of bigots supported (and ran campaigns around) leaving the EU...
    - zarzavat 5y ago
      One individual in particular springs to mind... https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/D748/production/_106921155_p078zmng.jpg https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/D748/product...
      - CodeGlitch 5y ago
        So the EU has a migrant problem. There are camps in France, Spain and probably other places not being reported. Poland is dealing with it as well in their own way without the eu. The EU hasn't come up with a solution to it. So I'm not sure which part of the image you posted is telling a lie or being misleading? The truth hurts sometimes. Doesn't mean anyone is a bigot though.
        zarzavat 5y ago
        Many of the migrants are in fact legitimate refugees from conflicts that the UK was intimately involved in the last 20 years (Afghanistan, Syria). Others are economic migrants from parts of the world that the British empire was directly responsible for fucking up. Most of the people of UK don't want to hear this, but we reap what we sew. In any case, Brexit has made the problem worse because now not only does the UK have a problem with boat crossings, but we have strained our relations with the country that the boats are coming from (France). The boats are indeed leaving the EU. In the absence of any logical reason to have a poster with a line of brown people and the text "Leave the EU" emblazoned on it, the only reason can be a bigoted one.
        CodeGlitch 5y ago
        > Many of the migrants are in fact legitimate refugees from conflicts that the UK was intimately involved in the last 20 years (Afghanistan, Syria). We were involved in Afghanistan, yes. Which brought about education for girls... Something not seen in that country for decades? We ultimately failed but not without trying to bring about a better world for those people. It's not like we were there to take the resources. It's news to be that we were involved in the recent conflict in Syria? > In any case, Brexit has made the problem worse because now not only does the UK have a problem with boat crossings, but we have strained our relations with the country that the boats are coming from (France). The boats are indeed leaving the EU. Agreed. But we know who exactly we can name and blame for these failings (British MPs), and vote against them going forward.
- native_samples 5y ago
  UK fishermen voted for Brexit because it would directly lead to larger fishing quotas for themselves, the UK being an island surrounded by fish that was forced to give up most of its fishing rights over its own seas to (amongst others) the French and Spanish, who have plenty of coastline of their own and a reputation for aggression. Given that fishermen weren't exactly ever migrating in droves to Berlin to become language teachers, that decision seems to be pretty much the epitome of rationality. The fact that you picked it as your best example of why people should live in a dictatorship in which they aren't even aware the rules are being made, let alone able to object, speaks volumes about the nature of EU ideology and why the UK was right to leave.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Leaving the eu isn't really something you can adjust to. It's like losing a limb: you might learn to do without, but it's loss you work around not one that grows back...
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Is it? The UK had a global empire before the EU existed. I'm not suggesting we go back to colonising far off lands, but clearly a nation can be successful outside the EU (there a plenty of examples of that). What an absurd idea.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    To clarify my metaphor... A person can absolutely be successful after losing a limb. But it's a lot easier if they haven't lost the limb. And when you lose a limb because of serious systemic issues (like the UK has) the chances of going on to be successful are... Dire. That's where the UK is. Success is entirely possible. And that's the faintest praise anyone can give isn't?
  - vanusa 5y ago
    [There a plenty of examples of nations successful outside the EU] But not nations actually in, you know, Europe.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      So, Switzerland is not successful? Norway isn't successful? The UK isn't successful? Of course there are such examples. Especially if you consider that it's not really clear what makes the EU "successful" in this argument.
      - vanusa 5y ago
        The UK is a non-example because that makes the argument circular. So I'll forget you mentioned it. Norway isn't successful? Norway is an outlier case, for obvious reasons. You could have also picked Albania, ex-Yugoslavia, Belarus, Ukraine in your list of proud EU dissenters but that wouldn't support your argument too well if you had, now would it? Of course there are such examples Just not "plenty" of them. Dear God, aren't debates on HN about basic world facts outright silly.

zarzavat 5y ago

There's nothing optimal or rational about international trade. It's full of the most vocal minorities screwing things up for everyone else (and sometimes themselves, see fishermen voting for Brexit). That's why trade agreements are usually negotiated in secret, to protect the parties from themselves. In 20 years when the coalition of bigots and reactionaries and profiteers that gave us this mess have expired, we might be able to return to something resembling a rational arrangement. Or not, perhaps we will slip further and further into oblivion such as Russia did after the USSR.

pydry 5y ago
>That's why trade agreements are usually negotiated in secret The last deal I saw negotiated in secret and then leaked (TPP) ended up being a corporate wishlist that benefitted nobody except large companies. The most absurd part was that it was more about extending copyright and setting up extra-judicial courts than dropping tarriffs yet they still called it a "free trade deal". Fortunate that it was leaked otherwise this abortion of a deal would have passed.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
> In 20 years when the coalition of bigots I was willing to listen to your argument up to this point. Throwing the "everyone who I disagree with is a bigot" around is very old hat at this point.
- d1sxeyes 5y ago
  I definitely would not say that everyone who voted to leave the EU is a bigot, but it's fairly undeniable that a lot of bigots supported (and ran campaigns around) leaving the EU...
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    One individual in particular springs to mind... https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/D748/production/_106921155_p078zmng.jpg https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/D748/product...
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      So the EU has a migrant problem. There are camps in France, Spain and probably other places not being reported. Poland is dealing with it as well in their own way without the eu. The EU hasn't come up with a solution to it. So I'm not sure which part of the image you posted is telling a lie or being misleading? The truth hurts sometimes. Doesn't mean anyone is a bigot though.
      - zarzavat 5y ago
        Many of the migrants are in fact legitimate refugees from conflicts that the UK was intimately involved in the last 20 years (Afghanistan, Syria). Others are economic migrants from parts of the world that the British empire was directly responsible for fucking up. Most of the people of UK don't want to hear this, but we reap what we sew. In any case, Brexit has made the problem worse because now not only does the UK have a problem with boat crossings, but we have strained our relations with the country that the boats are coming from (France). The boats are indeed leaving the EU. In the absence of any logical reason to have a poster with a line of brown people and the text "Leave the EU" emblazoned on it, the only reason can be a bigoted one.
        CodeGlitch 5y ago
        > Many of the migrants are in fact legitimate refugees from conflicts that the UK was intimately involved in the last 20 years (Afghanistan, Syria). We were involved in Afghanistan, yes. Which brought about education for girls... Something not seen in that country for decades? We ultimately failed but not without trying to bring about a better world for those people. It's not like we were there to take the resources. It's news to be that we were involved in the recent conflict in Syria? > In any case, Brexit has made the problem worse because now not only does the UK have a problem with boat crossings, but we have strained our relations with the country that the boats are coming from (France). The boats are indeed leaving the EU. Agreed. But we know who exactly we can name and blame for these failings (British MPs), and vote against them going forward.
native_samples 5y ago
UK fishermen voted for Brexit because it would directly lead to larger fishing quotas for themselves, the UK being an island surrounded by fish that was forced to give up most of its fishing rights over its own seas to (amongst others) the French and Spanish, who have plenty of coastline of their own and a reputation for aggression. Given that fishermen weren't exactly ever migrating in droves to Berlin to become language teachers, that decision seems to be pretty much the epitome of rationality. The fact that you picked it as your best example of why people should live in a dictatorship in which they aren't even aware the rules are being made, let alone able to object, speaks volumes about the nature of EU ideology and why the UK was right to leave.

LatteLazy 5y ago

Leaving the eu isn't really something you can adjust to. It's like losing a limb: you might learn to do without, but it's loss you work around not one that grows back...

CodeGlitch 5y ago
Is it? The UK had a global empire before the EU existed. I'm not suggesting we go back to colonising far off lands, but clearly a nation can be successful outside the EU (there a plenty of examples of that). What an absurd idea.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  To clarify my metaphor... A person can absolutely be successful after losing a limb. But it's a lot easier if they haven't lost the limb. And when you lose a limb because of serious systemic issues (like the UK has) the chances of going on to be successful are... Dire. That's where the UK is. Success is entirely possible. And that's the faintest praise anyone can give isn't?
- vanusa 5y ago
  [There a plenty of examples of nations successful outside the EU] But not nations actually in, you know, Europe.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    So, Switzerland is not successful? Norway isn't successful? The UK isn't successful? Of course there are such examples. Especially if you consider that it's not really clear what makes the EU "successful" in this argument.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      The UK is a non-example because that makes the argument circular. So I'll forget you mentioned it. Norway isn't successful? Norway is an outlier case, for obvious reasons. You could have also picked Albania, ex-Yugoslavia, Belarus, Ukraine in your list of proud EU dissenters but that wouldn't support your argument too well if you had, now would it? Of course there are such examples Just not "plenty" of them. Dear God, aren't debates on HN about basic world facts outright silly.