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It isn’t surprising that groups like descendants of chattel slavery who have had the same legal rights as white people for about half a century are systematical

It isn’t surprising that groups like descendants of chattel slavery who have had the same legal rights as white people for about half a century are systematically worse off than groups like middle class immigrants from East Asia.

inglor_cz 5y ago
"middle class immigrants from East Asia" That is just a small part of the entire picture. Plenty of Asians arrived as low wage manual workers or refugees (boat people) from then-strongly underdeveloped countries. Sometimes as orphans or incomplete families with all male relatives killed. Or you can look at Jewish people, terrorized, oppressed and killed by their neighbours for centuries. Expressions like "pogrom" and "ghetto" come from a long, bloody history of violent antisemitism.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  There are clear differences between these groups that reflect their circumstances though. Indian Americans tend to be well educated offspring of the Indian elite, and they're also the richest Asian-American subgroup. Hmong, Laotians and Vietnamese mostly descend from penniless refugees, and surprise surprise, they're at the bottom of the income table. Working your way from nothing to owning a nail salon or a donut shop is an achievement, but in financial terms it pales compared to the income of the IIT grad Brahmin who did their master's at Stanford and went on to work at Microsoft.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Yes, undeniably so, but the same applies to non-Asian groups. Nigerian Americans have the highest # of PhDs per 1000 people. Albanian Americans (white) are among the poorest Americans, while Russians are among the richest ones. As usual, there is a lot more diversity within the big racially defined groups than among them. And I would not discount the "nail salon" achievements at all. In my experience, it is the parents who build up these small shops, but their kids set their sights much higher than just inheriting those.
    - wobblybubble 5y ago
      > Yes, undeniably so, but the same applies to non-Asian groups. You’re the one who wanted to focus on Asians: > > As usual in the American racial discourse, this argument entirely ignores the huge gaping hole in its side that is the Asian community. But now that you aren’t managing to prove your point you (perhaps) want to broaden the topic again. Or? > Nigerian Americans have the highest # of PhDs per 1000 people. Albanian Americans (white) are among the poorest Americans, while Russians are among the richest ones. Ok? Racism is huge topic and can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. One type of racism would be to be mean to an African-looking person, and ~~an African~~ a Nigerian could be confused with an African-American. But that’s not really the kind of racism that is relevant here. Again, not sure what point you’re trying to make with this specific paragraph. > As usual, there is a lot more diversity within the big racially defined groups than among them. What people like you (or people who make the same points as you do) fail to realize is that disparity of outcomes among non-whites does not disprove racism, or prove that group X just need to study/work harder. One could theorize that the descendants of chattel slavery will have (for example) less family wealth than whites who are descendants of property owners and indentured servants. For example. And that’s a result of racist policies like slavery and lack of equal legal rights (of course blacks have less wealth to this day since blacks gaining equal legal rights did not even the playing field with regards to wealth…). Take your point about Nigerians for example. An African-American descendant of slaves and a Nigerian expat PhD-holder who works and lives in America will have about zero common background. Zero! The common experience they will have while living in America is to be treated like blacks. But their family background and upbringing will be as different as that of another Nigerian and a white American. So does that mean that racism isn’t really a thing? Not really. The African-American will still have been held back by racism.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago
        "One could theorize that the descendants of chattel slavery will have (for example) less family wealth than whites who are descendants of property owners and indentured servants. " People have even less family wealth in less stable places, plagued by war, genocide, forced expropriation, violent regime changes, state bankruptcies etc. For example, both Germany and Poland were big heaps of rubble in 1945. Nothing to inherit there but destroyed, burnt-out cities. The 20th century in general was pretty awful outside North America. If bad history was such a universal determinant of future failure or success, the world would be one giant hopeless poverty-stricken hellhole.

inglor_cz 5y ago

"middle class immigrants from East Asia" That is just a small part of the entire picture. Plenty of Asians arrived as low wage manual workers or refugees (boat people) from then-strongly underdeveloped countries. Sometimes as orphans or incomplete families with all male relatives killed. Or you can look at Jewish people, terrorized, oppressed and killed by their neighbours for centuries. Expressions like "pogrom" and "ghetto" come from a long, bloody history of violent antisemitism.

dustintrex 5y ago
There are clear differences between these groups that reflect their circumstances though. Indian Americans tend to be well educated offspring of the Indian elite, and they're also the richest Asian-American subgroup. Hmong, Laotians and Vietnamese mostly descend from penniless refugees, and surprise surprise, they're at the bottom of the income table. Working your way from nothing to owning a nail salon or a donut shop is an achievement, but in financial terms it pales compared to the income of the IIT grad Brahmin who did their master's at Stanford and went on to work at Microsoft.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Yes, undeniably so, but the same applies to non-Asian groups. Nigerian Americans have the highest # of PhDs per 1000 people. Albanian Americans (white) are among the poorest Americans, while Russians are among the richest ones. As usual, there is a lot more diversity within the big racially defined groups than among them. And I would not discount the "nail salon" achievements at all. In my experience, it is the parents who build up these small shops, but their kids set their sights much higher than just inheriting those.
  - wobblybubble 5y ago
    > Yes, undeniably so, but the same applies to non-Asian groups. You’re the one who wanted to focus on Asians: > > As usual in the American racial discourse, this argument entirely ignores the huge gaping hole in its side that is the Asian community. But now that you aren’t managing to prove your point you (perhaps) want to broaden the topic again. Or? > Nigerian Americans have the highest # of PhDs per 1000 people. Albanian Americans (white) are among the poorest Americans, while Russians are among the richest ones. Ok? Racism is huge topic and can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. One type of racism would be to be mean to an African-looking person, and ~~an African~~ a Nigerian could be confused with an African-American. But that’s not really the kind of racism that is relevant here. Again, not sure what point you’re trying to make with this specific paragraph. > As usual, there is a lot more diversity within the big racially defined groups than among them. What people like you (or people who make the same points as you do) fail to realize is that disparity of outcomes among non-whites does not disprove racism, or prove that group X just need to study/work harder. One could theorize that the descendants of chattel slavery will have (for example) less family wealth than whites who are descendants of property owners and indentured servants. For example. And that’s a result of racist policies like slavery and lack of equal legal rights (of course blacks have less wealth to this day since blacks gaining equal legal rights did not even the playing field with regards to wealth…). Take your point about Nigerians for example. An African-American descendant of slaves and a Nigerian expat PhD-holder who works and lives in America will have about zero common background. Zero! The common experience they will have while living in America is to be treated like blacks. But their family background and upbringing will be as different as that of another Nigerian and a white American. So does that mean that racism isn’t really a thing? Not really. The African-American will still have been held back by racism.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      "One could theorize that the descendants of chattel slavery will have (for example) less family wealth than whites who are descendants of property owners and indentured servants. " People have even less family wealth in less stable places, plagued by war, genocide, forced expropriation, violent regime changes, state bankruptcies etc. For example, both Germany and Poland were big heaps of rubble in 1945. Nothing to inherit there but destroyed, burnt-out cities. The 20th century in general was pretty awful outside North America. If bad history was such a universal determinant of future failure or success, the world would be one giant hopeless poverty-stricken hellhole.