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That is not the correct definition of a vaccine. Nobody would say that about a polio or diphtheria vaccine. COVID shots should NEVER have been called a vaccine.

by paul_f 5y ago

That is not the correct definition of a vaccine. Nobody would say that about a polio or diphtheria vaccine. COVID shots should NEVER have been called a vaccine. They are instead similar to seasonal flu shots. Flu shots do not prevent spreading, their main advantage is reduce hospitalization and death.

rsfern 5y ago
Cancer immunotherapy candidates have been referred to as cancer vaccines for a long time without controversy, and they are generally not intended to prevent cancers. They are medicines that work via an immune response. Sure, public health communication could use some improvement, but arguing over the definition “vaccine” I think is not productive
- peteradio 5y ago
  Ask someone why they'd support mandatory vaccination and generally you will hear: to stop unvaccinated people from spreading the disease. Definitions do matter here. Governments are leaning heavily on this misunderstanding.
  - rsfern 5y ago
    I agree that definitions matter, and it’s important to have a clear discourse on policy implications of public health research. But my point is that it’s incorrect to call the current Covid vaccines “not vaccines” just because they don’t 100% prevent transmission or infection. That’s only muddying the waters at the expense of a real discussion of the evidence and trade offs for any given policy position. See pre-pandemic wiki, for example: https://web.archive.org/web/20170403082447/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine https://web.archive.org/web/20170403082447/https://en.m.wiki...
    - anamax 5y ago
      > I agree that definitions matter, and it’s important to have a clear discourse on policy implications of public health research. And yet, you insist on using "vaccine" to push mandates, knowing that most people think you're promising that that said "vaccine" will keep people from spreading covid, knowing full well that it doesn't.
      - rsfern 5y ago
        Where am I pushing mandates? I think there are valid policy positions on both sides of the issue, and that you’re misrepresenting the logic of those who still are in favor of vaccine mandates. You also haven’t offered any substantive counterpoint to my main point, which is that the widely accepted definition of vaccines is broadly consistent with the current coronavirus vaccines. The scare quotes aren’t necessary and detract from a reasonable discussion of their actual utility and tradeoffs
        anamax 5y ago
        They're not scare quotes. I'm writing about word choice, so it's appropriate to use delimiters to make it clear exactly what word I'm writing about. Most people think that "vaccine" has a specific meaning. It is dishonest to use that label for something that doesn't conform to that meaning when communicating with those people.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Ok, sorry if I misinterpreted your punctuation, the last instance is what read like scare quotes to me; maybe `backtick` is a better delimiter for this case > Most people think that `vaccine` has a specific meaning. It is dishonest to use that label for something that doesn't conform to that meaning when communicating with those people. I disagree that it’s dishonest, it’s the correct term. I agree that if most people have a misunderstanding of what constitutes a vaccine, then failing to address that is going to lead to suboptimal public health communication.
        5y ago
    - peteradio 5y ago
      I think I agree, that these are definitely vaccines even according to traditional definitions, but the etymology is unduly impacting real world understanding IMO. To be clear, I did not put my point to refute yours but to perhaps add an additional perpendicular view on the subject of how we are talking about these things and how selective misunderstanding is allowed to persist.
      - rsfern 5y ago
        Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do agree that the public discourse has not been very productive, and the news coverage has been overconfident and one-sided in one way or another, especially around omicron lately.
fivea 5y ago
> They are instead similar to seasonal flu shots. "Flu shots", aka seasonal flu vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm It seems that your personal belief of what a vaccine is does not match the real concept of what a vaccine is and always was.
- paul_f 5y ago
  According to the CDC, here is the definition of vaccine/immunity: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected. Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease
  - fivea 5y ago
    > Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease I'm not sure you hit an eventual consistency thing while you read the source you cited, but the definition of a vaccine in it does not match your definition. A vaccine, according to the CDC source you quoted, is: > Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. (...) Keep in mind that your personal definition of a vaccine does not match how most vaccines work, if any vaccine at all.
    - paul_f 5y ago
      From the CDC: Vaccine = "Produce immunity". Immunity = "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected" It's right there. This definition, and the most common understanding is that a vaccine means "without being infected".

by paul_f 5y ago

rsfern 5y ago

Cancer immunotherapy candidates have been referred to as cancer vaccines for a long time without controversy, and they are generally not intended to prevent cancers. They are medicines that work via an immune response. Sure, public health communication could use some improvement, but arguing over the definition “vaccine” I think is not productive

peteradio 5y ago
Ask someone why they'd support mandatory vaccination and generally you will hear: to stop unvaccinated people from spreading the disease. Definitions do matter here. Governments are leaning heavily on this misunderstanding.
- rsfern 5y ago
  I agree that definitions matter, and it’s important to have a clear discourse on policy implications of public health research. But my point is that it’s incorrect to call the current Covid vaccines “not vaccines” just because they don’t 100% prevent transmission or infection. That’s only muddying the waters at the expense of a real discussion of the evidence and trade offs for any given policy position. See pre-pandemic wiki, for example: https://web.archive.org/web/20170403082447/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine https://web.archive.org/web/20170403082447/https://en.m.wiki...
  - anamax 5y ago
    > I agree that definitions matter, and it’s important to have a clear discourse on policy implications of public health research. And yet, you insist on using "vaccine" to push mandates, knowing that most people think you're promising that that said "vaccine" will keep people from spreading covid, knowing full well that it doesn't.
    - rsfern 5y ago
      Where am I pushing mandates? I think there are valid policy positions on both sides of the issue, and that you’re misrepresenting the logic of those who still are in favor of vaccine mandates. You also haven’t offered any substantive counterpoint to my main point, which is that the widely accepted definition of vaccines is broadly consistent with the current coronavirus vaccines. The scare quotes aren’t necessary and detract from a reasonable discussion of their actual utility and tradeoffs
      - anamax 5y ago
        They're not scare quotes. I'm writing about word choice, so it's appropriate to use delimiters to make it clear exactly what word I'm writing about. Most people think that "vaccine" has a specific meaning. It is dishonest to use that label for something that doesn't conform to that meaning when communicating with those people.
        rsfern 5y ago
        Ok, sorry if I misinterpreted your punctuation, the last instance is what read like scare quotes to me; maybe `backtick` is a better delimiter for this case > Most people think that `vaccine` has a specific meaning. It is dishonest to use that label for something that doesn't conform to that meaning when communicating with those people. I disagree that it’s dishonest, it’s the correct term. I agree that if most people have a misunderstanding of what constitutes a vaccine, then failing to address that is going to lead to suboptimal public health communication.
        5y ago
  - peteradio 5y ago
    I think I agree, that these are definitely vaccines even according to traditional definitions, but the etymology is unduly impacting real world understanding IMO. To be clear, I did not put my point to refute yours but to perhaps add an additional perpendicular view on the subject of how we are talking about these things and how selective misunderstanding is allowed to persist.
    - rsfern 5y ago
      Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I do agree that the public discourse has not been very productive, and the news coverage has been overconfident and one-sided in one way or another, especially around omicron lately.

fivea 5y ago

> They are instead similar to seasonal flu shots. "Flu shots", aka seasonal flu vaccine. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/keyfacts.htm It seems that your personal belief of what a vaccine is does not match the real concept of what a vaccine is and always was.

paul_f 5y ago
According to the CDC, here is the definition of vaccine/immunity: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected. Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease
- fivea 5y ago
  > Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease I'm not sure you hit an eventual consistency thing while you read the source you cited, but the definition of a vaccine in it does not match your definition. A vaccine, according to the CDC source you quoted, is: > Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. (...) Keep in mind that your personal definition of a vaccine does not match how most vaccines work, if any vaccine at all.
  - paul_f 5y ago
    From the CDC: Vaccine = "Produce immunity". Immunity = "you can be exposed to it without becoming infected" It's right there. This definition, and the most common understanding is that a vaccine means "without being infected".