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I am not religious at all and I've thought of myself as tolerant of religion (they all have some very good teachings, after all). But lately organised religion

I am not religious at all and I've thought of myself as tolerant of religion (they all have some very good teachings, after all). But lately organised religion has been bothering me a lot. It is just so obviously a form of controlling people: you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. I can't get around the fact that this still goes on so blatantly in this day and age.

Scea91 5y ago
Recently I was attending several catholic weddings and I was taken aback by the level of religious fervor and literal interpretation of the bible there. I was expecting the preaching to be more focused on how to live a good life and be a valuable member of society, but instead it was more about how I will burn eternally for not believing.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  can you explain further?
- lebuffon 5y ago
  These attitudes come in cycles in the Roman church. There was a 50 year period of liberal thinking. The current has era has swung back to the conservative. When an organization has a 1600 year life span you can expect things like this. Just wait a while...
  - analog31 5y ago
    It could also be regional. My experience in Catholic churches in Texas was a lot different than the upper Midwest. Also, the attitudes of the clergy don't necessarily mirror those of the laity, and there are divisions within the laity as well. The people in the pews get their ideas from a lot of different places, ranging from liberal to evangelical. This was many years ago, haven't been involved for a long time.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > There was a 50 year period of liberal thinking. I'm not sure that's justifiable. > The current has era has swung back to the conservative. In the American particular Church more than in the Universal Church that seems correct. (Up through the papacy of Benedict XVI, I would have responded differently.)
- ginja 5y ago
  The guilt is definitely pushed strongly in Catholicism and probably the worst part of it. But I don't think Catholics are too literal in their interpretation of the bible - in fact I think they are generally more rational than most other denominations. For instance, Catholics generally accept scientific explanations for evolution and the origin of the universe unlike many (most?) protestants.
  - JackFr 5y ago
    Lifelong Catholic here -- I've never felt that the guilt was pushed too strongly. What I do feel is that the Catholic Church is very willing to say that certain beliefs and practices are proscribed, that sin is real and should be avoided. What people are calling guilt is their own attachment to sin, and their reluctance to abandoning it. (That being said, God's capacity for love is beyond human conception and no person can ever be beyond redemption.)
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Recently I was attending several catholic weddings and I was taken aback by the level of religious fervor and literal interpretation of the bible there. I was expecting the preaching to be more focused on how to live a good life and be a valuable member of society, but instead it was more about how I will burn eternally for not believing. Literalism isn’t a big thing in Catholicism, but you can run into it and, what sounds to be more the issue here, there are definitely some (IME, a small minority, but they are quite noticeable) Catholic priests who love to use events where they are likely to get non-regular churchgoers in the congregaton as an opportunity to try to deploy a fear hammer to get people back to Church.
ren_engineer 5y ago
>It is just so obviously a form of controlling people: you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. could be generalized to any mainstream ideology, enforcement is the same with anybody going against the ideology being cast out of the group. Human nature hasn't changed, you could get rid of all organized religion and the same thing would happen. I think politics has become more heated because it has replaced religion for so many people, same anger vented using a new outlet
- GreenWatermelon 5y ago
  I think the same, especially when it comes to conflicts. A lot of atheists love to say much about how religion only brings suffering and it's the source of all conflicts, much to my annoyance.
GreenWatermelon 5y ago
As a religious person (By western standards) I can't stand any sort of Religious authority. I believe they are what made religions Today incredible superficial. Critical thinking is prohibited in favor of blind belief, and the clergy only recite what they memorized. To me, my Holy Book is the only religious authority, and it's my job to understand it and think about it, however such injection of the mind into religion is downright heretical where I come from. This leads to conflicts with those around me as my interpretations of the book is incredibly liberal, compared to the fossilized understandings of the clergy.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  "my Holy Book is the only religious authority" Sounds like idolatry to me -- sounds like you are taking a book, written, edited, and organized by human beings, and equating it with God.
  - marc_io 5y ago
    As long as it's “transparent to transcendence,” that's fine. Absolutely everything is this world can be used in this manner. It's all a great mystery anyway.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
iso1210 5y ago
> you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. My feeling is this is an Americanism. Here in the UK I've been to church events in the past - usually stuff linked to school events (harvest, nativity etc), or weddings/funerals, and been in a few old cathedrals which have a donation box, but the stuff I see on US TV shows like the Simpsons -- collection plate passing, advertising, televangelism, etc all seems very different and far more obviously "con artistry" There is some cult that does some low-key advertising in the UK (occasional posters on bus stops in London) over the last decade or so, the alpha church or something, which is mildly concerning, but the general course of religion, from what I can tell it's just a place some people go and have a chat and a sing-song, no different to the pub really.
- anon9001 5y ago
  The way this was explained to me is that you have the Church of England, which is technically an established church run by the state. The government<->church connection makes it easier to be distrustful of the church when you're distrustful of the government, which detracts from the divine nature of faith and creates a more secular nation. Compare that to the US (The Simpsons depiction is largely accurate), where the US Government and the church are completely separate. That means your church can be right and your government can be wrong, which creates all sorts of problematic dynamics in the states. Currently, the "my church is right, government is wrong" crowd has essentially adopted the Trump family as their new church. I don't think you guys could have that happen across the pond. That's why we're about to do a fascism.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> But lately organised religion has been bothering me a lot. It is just so obviously a form of controlling people: you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. You can find organized religions that don’t feature any of those that bother you (quite a lot are really mostly concerned with only the first, and there are some where even that is not all that much of a concern; I personally would suggest avoiding the ones that drop the first but retain either of the other two.)
andrei_says_ 5y ago
Funny you mention this. I am the person who posted the question and I didn’t mention religion anywhere. That said, what is your religion-free spiritual practice, if you have any?

Scea91 5y ago

Recently I was attending several catholic weddings and I was taken aback by the level of religious fervor and literal interpretation of the bible there. I was expecting the preaching to be more focused on how to live a good life and be a valuable member of society, but instead it was more about how I will burn eternally for not believing.

QuarterReptile 5y ago
can you explain further?
lebuffon 5y ago
These attitudes come in cycles in the Roman church. There was a 50 year period of liberal thinking. The current has era has swung back to the conservative. When an organization has a 1600 year life span you can expect things like this. Just wait a while...
- analog31 5y ago
  It could also be regional. My experience in Catholic churches in Texas was a lot different than the upper Midwest. Also, the attitudes of the clergy don't necessarily mirror those of the laity, and there are divisions within the laity as well. The people in the pews get their ideas from a lot of different places, ranging from liberal to evangelical. This was many years ago, haven't been involved for a long time.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > There was a 50 year period of liberal thinking. I'm not sure that's justifiable. > The current has era has swung back to the conservative. In the American particular Church more than in the Universal Church that seems correct. (Up through the papacy of Benedict XVI, I would have responded differently.)
ginja 5y ago
The guilt is definitely pushed strongly in Catholicism and probably the worst part of it. But I don't think Catholics are too literal in their interpretation of the bible - in fact I think they are generally more rational than most other denominations. For instance, Catholics generally accept scientific explanations for evolution and the origin of the universe unlike many (most?) protestants.
- JackFr 5y ago
  Lifelong Catholic here -- I've never felt that the guilt was pushed too strongly. What I do feel is that the Catholic Church is very willing to say that certain beliefs and practices are proscribed, that sin is real and should be avoided. What people are calling guilt is their own attachment to sin, and their reluctance to abandoning it. (That being said, God's capacity for love is beyond human conception and no person can ever be beyond redemption.)
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Recently I was attending several catholic weddings and I was taken aback by the level of religious fervor and literal interpretation of the bible there. I was expecting the preaching to be more focused on how to live a good life and be a valuable member of society, but instead it was more about how I will burn eternally for not believing. Literalism isn’t a big thing in Catholicism, but you can run into it and, what sounds to be more the issue here, there are definitely some (IME, a small minority, but they are quite noticeable) Catholic priests who love to use events where they are likely to get non-regular churchgoers in the congregaton as an opportunity to try to deploy a fear hammer to get people back to Church.

ren_engineer 5y ago

>It is just so obviously a form of controlling people: you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. could be generalized to any mainstream ideology, enforcement is the same with anybody going against the ideology being cast out of the group. Human nature hasn't changed, you could get rid of all organized religion and the same thing would happen. I think politics has become more heated because it has replaced religion for so many people, same anger vented using a new outlet

GreenWatermelon 5y ago
I think the same, especially when it comes to conflicts. A lot of atheists love to say much about how religion only brings suffering and it's the source of all conflicts, much to my annoyance.

GreenWatermelon 5y ago

As a religious person (By western standards) I can't stand any sort of Religious authority. I believe they are what made religions Today incredible superficial. Critical thinking is prohibited in favor of blind belief, and the clergy only recite what they memorized. To me, my Holy Book is the only religious authority, and it's my job to understand it and think about it, however such injection of the mind into religion is downright heretical where I come from. This leads to conflicts with those around me as my interpretations of the book is incredibly liberal, compared to the fossilized understandings of the clergy.

betterunix2 5y ago
"my Holy Book is the only religious authority" Sounds like idolatry to me -- sounds like you are taking a book, written, edited, and organized by human beings, and equating it with God.
- marc_io 5y ago
  As long as it's “transparent to transcendence,” that's fine. Absolutely everything is this world can be used in this manner. It's all a great mystery anyway.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

iso1210 5y ago

> you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. My feeling is this is an Americanism. Here in the UK I've been to church events in the past - usually stuff linked to school events (harvest, nativity etc), or weddings/funerals, and been in a few old cathedrals which have a donation box, but the stuff I see on US TV shows like the Simpsons -- collection plate passing, advertising, televangelism, etc all seems very different and far more obviously "con artistry" There is some cult that does some low-key advertising in the UK (occasional posters on bus stops in London) over the last decade or so, the alpha church or something, which is mildly concerning, but the general course of religion, from what I can tell it's just a place some people go and have a chat and a sing-song, no different to the pub really.

anon9001 5y ago
The way this was explained to me is that you have the Church of England, which is technically an established church run by the state. The government<->church connection makes it easier to be distrustful of the church when you're distrustful of the government, which detracts from the divine nature of faith and creates a more secular nation. Compare that to the US (The Simpsons depiction is largely accurate), where the US Government and the church are completely separate. That means your church can be right and your government can be wrong, which creates all sorts of problematic dynamics in the states. Currently, the "my church is right, government is wrong" crowd has essentially adopted the Trump family as their new church. I don't think you guys could have that happen across the pond. That's why we're about to do a fascism.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> But lately organised religion has been bothering me a lot. It is just so obviously a form of controlling people: you have to believe this and that and also hand over some cash and vote for such and such. You can find organized religions that don’t feature any of those that bother you (quite a lot are really mostly concerned with only the first, and there are some where even that is not all that much of a concern; I personally would suggest avoiding the ones that drop the first but retain either of the other two.)

andrei_says_ 5y ago

Funny you mention this. I am the person who posted the question and I didn’t mention religion anywhere. That said, what is your religion-free spiritual practice, if you have any?