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I wouldn’t feel any guilt about pirating the content I bought on any of those services if my account was taken from me for inactivity. I’d be interested to hear

I wouldn’t feel any guilt about pirating the content I bought on any of those services if my account was taken from me for inactivity. I’d be interested to hear the argument about why that would be wrong though.

josephcsible 5y ago
It's definitely fine morally, but unfortunately it's illegal anyway.
- platz 5y ago
  - tombert 5y ago
    Why is that? If you buy the game off Steam or something, this implies that the creators/publishers/platforms have gotten their due compensation. The cracks and files on ThePirateBay are done on a volunteer basis, meaning that it’s not costing the game developers any money.
    - iamthirsty 5y ago
      It is costing a developer money — someone who downloads the pirated game would’ve otherwise bought it. Game devs make money on sales. However if you have already bought the game, and then download a pirated version, it isn’t.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - tombert 5y ago
        I was reasonably certain that this thread was specifically speaking in regard to the latter case.
      - tehbeard 5y ago
        Maybe lay off the eggnog or before reading HN so that you don't comment this poorly w/o reading the thread... They've bought it, the Dev. Got whatever pittance the publisher seems worthy, they just want an experience unadulterated by crappy launchers or corrupted by overzealous DRM.
        iamthirsty 5y ago
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - realusername 5y ago
        > It is costing a developer money — someone who downloads the pirated game would’ve otherwise bought it. Game devs make money on sales. Source? No research ever managed to prove that.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Is there any chance you misunderstood? They said they wouldn't feel bad morally about pirating things they had in fact already paid for? Does your ethics require you to stick to the letter of the terms and conditions including allowing people to keep your money and take back the value they promised you?
- namlem 5y ago
  Who cares if it's illegal? It's not like you're gonna get caught. Just use a VPN.
MattGaiser 5y ago
I would be interested in knowing if that would be legal. As might you technically have purchased your license?
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Generally speaking, it's uploading/transferring content to others that is illegal, not downloading it for yourself. At least, de facto if not de jure.
  - humanistbot 5y ago
    In most jurisdictions, copyright infringement isn't a crime, it is a civil tort, meaning you can be sued by the copyright holder for damages. Most big media copyright holders (MPAA/RIAA/etc) have a policy of only going after uploaders because it just isn't cost effective to go after downloaders for damages. A downloader can only be sued for the retail value of what they downloaded, while uploaders can be sued for the retail value of what they uploaded times the number of downloads. But this isn't codified in law, it is just corporate policy.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      >A downloader can only be sued for the retail value of what they downloaded Is this the actual law? I remember hearing about people being sued for $100k+ just for downloading a few albums back in the Limewire days.
      - ramchip 5y ago
        Most likely they were also distributing (uploading), not just downloading.
        AussieWog93 5y ago
        Reading the EFF's history (and thinking about how the technology works for one second!), it seems this was how the lawsuits were put forth.
Hokusai 5y ago
Because laws are not about justice. If you get something stolen you need to go to a judge to get a sentence that gives it back to you. You cannot take justice on your hands and expect to not be punished.
- sshine 5y ago
  But you can.
- buraktamturk 5y ago
  I don't think that is entirely true. For example, if a cheating happens in an online game you don't wait a court decision to ban the player - taking the justice on your hands and expect to not be punished. Or killing a person is illegal but you can use your self-defence rights if the other person is trying to kill you. You can use interfaces from copyrighted language (Oracle v. Google) for fair use purposes without getting a court decision first. If the thing that you are trying to do is legal by universal laws, international laws and national laws (in order). You don't really need to worry. In that stealing example let's assume someone stole something and you "stole" it back. Good luck for the first stealer to initiate a court case - which probably the stealer will not initiate because he will lose it plus with the expenses for the court. No court case meaning no complains therefore no crime.
  - buraktamturk 5y ago
    There are many old games that runs some kind DRM system that is using deprecated Operating System API's - some of them are undocumented and mostly operated in ring 0. Just because you pirated a game that you own a copy, in order to play it on newer version of operating system does not make you criminal. You may need a court decision only if you are not able to private or fix it without the company help but that's all.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  This is infeasible though as evidenced by how actual theft doesn't get handled by the legal system (police, prosecutors, and judges). Realistically the only way to get your stuff back is to take it back yourself or somehow force the police into action by doing the work for them.
10x-dev 5y ago
It's the same argument as vigilante justice.
- tombert 5y ago
  Sure, but taking this to its logical extreme, it seems like I could justify any act as long as it’s also legal. While I totally agree with the advice of “it’s illegal so you probably shouldn’t do it”, I don’t think it’s a terribly interesting conversation philosophically. Deferring to human law in these discussions feels like an existential cop-out. I think the question is substantially more interesting if you pretend that you have a magic wand to make the laws whatever you want, and then ask “why would it be wrong for me to torrent a game that I have purchased a legal copy of?”
  - chris_wot 5y ago
    Well, sadly if something is legal then they can actually do that thing. I don’t like it myself, but that’s unfortunately how it works.
    - tombert 5y ago
      No argument but I feel like that’s an orthogonal topic to “is it moral for me to pirate a game that I purchased a legal copy of?” I’m well aware that I’m legally allowed to do legal things, but “laws” have a lot of politics and emotion involved in their creation, and I don’t feel like they’re a great place to determine the “morality” of something.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - 10x-dev 5y ago
    You might as well remove the legality of it from the question then and focus on the moral aspect. In the case of downloading a copy of the game you own, I don't have a moral issue with that. However, I don't think that generalizes to any digital good. I'd say it is morally wrong to make copies of a digital good where an additional instance gets you some benefits. For example, downloading an additional digital ticket to a limited virtual event, thereby gaining access for free, or any instance where the original creator loses a sale and someone gets to enjoy or profit from said copy of the digital good.
causi 5y ago
These days I generally pirate the single-player content I purchase anyway. Anything that requires Origin, Epic, uPlay, or any other cancerous software to be installed gets paid for and promptly pirated. I trust the Pirate Bay more than I trust Ubisoft.
- kranner 5y ago
  I do the same thing for my Kindle purchases. Luckily I have a Paperwhite whose serial number works with DeDRM to strip DRM for all my Kindle purchases (except Hindi books which are not downloadable for some reason).
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    You could also use the PC kindle app to download books and strip their DRM. That might be easier than transferring every book back and forth. (I use the kindle 1.26 version. It requires an additional plugin to convert the new amazon format, but works with DeDRM after that.)
    - kranner 5y ago
      Thanks for the tip, I haven't tried it with the PC Kindle app! An additional issue with (most) Hindi books is that they aren't supported on the Mac app, so they don't even download into the app's storage, let alone as standalone AZWs for manual transfer.
- firecall 5y ago
  Dont you worry about Malware, Viruses and suchlike?
  - causi 5y ago
    Not from reputable uploaders. It's about reputation, and people like, say, Fitgirl have a hell of a lot better reputation than Ubisoft or EA.
  - jjkmk 5y ago
emodendroket 5y ago
I wouldn't feel guilty but I just do not want to bother. Half the reason I pay is I don't want the trouble.

josephcsible 5y ago

It's definitely fine morally, but unfortunately it's illegal anyway.

platz 5y ago
- tombert 5y ago
  Why is that? If you buy the game off Steam or something, this implies that the creators/publishers/platforms have gotten their due compensation. The cracks and files on ThePirateBay are done on a volunteer basis, meaning that it’s not costing the game developers any money.
  - iamthirsty 5y ago
    It is costing a developer money — someone who downloads the pirated game would’ve otherwise bought it. Game devs make money on sales. However if you have already bought the game, and then download a pirated version, it isn’t.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tombert 5y ago
      I was reasonably certain that this thread was specifically speaking in regard to the latter case.
    - tehbeard 5y ago
      Maybe lay off the eggnog or before reading HN so that you don't comment this poorly w/o reading the thread... They've bought it, the Dev. Got whatever pittance the publisher seems worthy, they just want an experience unadulterated by crappy launchers or corrupted by overzealous DRM.
      - iamthirsty 5y ago
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - realusername 5y ago
      > It is costing a developer money — someone who downloads the pirated game would’ve otherwise bought it. Game devs make money on sales. Source? No research ever managed to prove that.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Is there any chance you misunderstood? They said they wouldn't feel bad morally about pirating things they had in fact already paid for? Does your ethics require you to stick to the letter of the terms and conditions including allowing people to keep your money and take back the value they promised you?
namlem 5y ago
Who cares if it's illegal? It's not like you're gonna get caught. Just use a VPN.

MattGaiser 5y ago

I would be interested in knowing if that would be legal. As might you technically have purchased your license?

lostcolony 5y ago
Generally speaking, it's uploading/transferring content to others that is illegal, not downloading it for yourself. At least, de facto if not de jure.
- humanistbot 5y ago
  In most jurisdictions, copyright infringement isn't a crime, it is a civil tort, meaning you can be sued by the copyright holder for damages. Most big media copyright holders (MPAA/RIAA/etc) have a policy of only going after uploaders because it just isn't cost effective to go after downloaders for damages. A downloader can only be sued for the retail value of what they downloaded, while uploaders can be sued for the retail value of what they uploaded times the number of downloads. But this isn't codified in law, it is just corporate policy.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    >A downloader can only be sued for the retail value of what they downloaded Is this the actual law? I remember hearing about people being sued for $100k+ just for downloading a few albums back in the Limewire days.
    - ramchip 5y ago
      Most likely they were also distributing (uploading), not just downloading.
      - AussieWog93 5y ago
        Reading the EFF's history (and thinking about how the technology works for one second!), it seems this was how the lawsuits were put forth.

Hokusai 5y ago

Because laws are not about justice. If you get something stolen you need to go to a judge to get a sentence that gives it back to you. You cannot take justice on your hands and expect to not be punished.

sshine 5y ago
But you can.
buraktamturk 5y ago
I don't think that is entirely true. For example, if a cheating happens in an online game you don't wait a court decision to ban the player - taking the justice on your hands and expect to not be punished. Or killing a person is illegal but you can use your self-defence rights if the other person is trying to kill you. You can use interfaces from copyrighted language (Oracle v. Google) for fair use purposes without getting a court decision first. If the thing that you are trying to do is legal by universal laws, international laws and national laws (in order). You don't really need to worry. In that stealing example let's assume someone stole something and you "stole" it back. Good luck for the first stealer to initiate a court case - which probably the stealer will not initiate because he will lose it plus with the expenses for the court. No court case meaning no complains therefore no crime.
- buraktamturk 5y ago
  There are many old games that runs some kind DRM system that is using deprecated Operating System API's - some of them are undocumented and mostly operated in ring 0. Just because you pirated a game that you own a copy, in order to play it on newer version of operating system does not make you criminal. You may need a court decision only if you are not able to private or fix it without the company help but that's all.
Aerroon 5y ago
This is infeasible though as evidenced by how actual theft doesn't get handled by the legal system (police, prosecutors, and judges). Realistically the only way to get your stuff back is to take it back yourself or somehow force the police into action by doing the work for them.

10x-dev 5y ago

It's the same argument as vigilante justice.

tombert 5y ago
Sure, but taking this to its logical extreme, it seems like I could justify any act as long as it’s also legal. While I totally agree with the advice of “it’s illegal so you probably shouldn’t do it”, I don’t think it’s a terribly interesting conversation philosophically. Deferring to human law in these discussions feels like an existential cop-out. I think the question is substantially more interesting if you pretend that you have a magic wand to make the laws whatever you want, and then ask “why would it be wrong for me to torrent a game that I have purchased a legal copy of?”
- chris_wot 5y ago
  Well, sadly if something is legal then they can actually do that thing. I don’t like it myself, but that’s unfortunately how it works.
  - tombert 5y ago
    No argument but I feel like that’s an orthogonal topic to “is it moral for me to pirate a game that I purchased a legal copy of?” I’m well aware that I’m legally allowed to do legal things, but “laws” have a lot of politics and emotion involved in their creation, and I don’t feel like they’re a great place to determine the “morality” of something.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- 10x-dev 5y ago
  You might as well remove the legality of it from the question then and focus on the moral aspect. In the case of downloading a copy of the game you own, I don't have a moral issue with that. However, I don't think that generalizes to any digital good. I'd say it is morally wrong to make copies of a digital good where an additional instance gets you some benefits. For example, downloading an additional digital ticket to a limited virtual event, thereby gaining access for free, or any instance where the original creator loses a sale and someone gets to enjoy or profit from said copy of the digital good.

causi 5y ago

These days I generally pirate the single-player content I purchase anyway. Anything that requires Origin, Epic, uPlay, or any other cancerous software to be installed gets paid for and promptly pirated. I trust the Pirate Bay more than I trust Ubisoft.

kranner 5y ago
I do the same thing for my Kindle purchases. Luckily I have a Paperwhite whose serial number works with DeDRM to strip DRM for all my Kindle purchases (except Hindi books which are not downloadable for some reason).
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  You could also use the PC kindle app to download books and strip their DRM. That might be easier than transferring every book back and forth. (I use the kindle 1.26 version. It requires an additional plugin to convert the new amazon format, but works with DeDRM after that.)
  - kranner 5y ago
    Thanks for the tip, I haven't tried it with the PC Kindle app! An additional issue with (most) Hindi books is that they aren't supported on the Mac app, so they don't even download into the app's storage, let alone as standalone AZWs for manual transfer.
firecall 5y ago
Dont you worry about Malware, Viruses and suchlike?
- causi 5y ago
  Not from reputable uploaders. It's about reputation, and people like, say, Fitgirl have a hell of a lot better reputation than Ubisoft or EA.
- jjkmk 5y ago

emodendroket 5y ago

I wouldn't feel guilty but I just do not want to bother. Half the reason I pay is I don't want the trouble.