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Wow. I only get the inner workings at a very basic, intuitive level, but it's really cool to see the progress of this and similar research. Congrats to the rese

Wow. I only get the inner workings at a very basic, intuitive level, but it's really cool to see the progress of this and similar research. Congrats to the researchers. It's awe-inspiring and even frightening at first, in the usual ways, but IMO it has a lot of long-term promise in other ways. Spitballing: I like that this kind of result, which clearly calls into question the role or perception of physical identity, may eventually inform (or even necessitate?) the deconstruction of the physical "I" as a permission broker, and further open a many-to-many interface between the dimensions that underlay what we now think of as "self" and the true depth and variety within what we now think of as "individual humans who are not me". That opening process alone ought to be a huge jump for human development. Right now we're each held, and holding ourselves, way too responsible for maintaining a singular subjective identity, looking at the aggregate. Not only does this compromise our outlook on others based on our subjective perception of the identity match, but it also compromises our ability to reliably consume and metabolize identity-construct-breaking information and experiences. And many of those things, when consumed without so many identity borders--so to speak--will end up being incredibly useful for individuals and group both. Thanks for sharing op.

walleeee 5y ago
how in particular do you think this sort of work might inform interpretations of personal identity? what uses do you anticipate for a more [fluid? porous? plural?] self-regard?
- themodelplumber 5y ago
  Hmm, that would go into specifics, which IMO are kind of tenuous from the start since the point of a spitball is to be open to unknowns. So with that said, some ideas could be started around topics like 1) massive identity theft causing a re-thinking of identity 2) creativity and constraints around the moderation of physical identity and 3) technical-presentational dynamics surrounding physical presence and the moderation of identity presentation in a physical presence context. Any one of these is a great setup for the question: How do we interpret personal identity? And this--again just IMO--would be an amazing point at which to say, "look, if the only word-tool we can use is 'identity' to describe this crisis/opportunity, then maybe all we have is a metaphorical hammer and we have all these endless annoying nails--in the form of identity questions--to hammer down. But if we had maybe some other word-tools to use instead of 'identity', maybe this really would look more like an opportunity to move humanity one more step up the evolutionary ladder." We already moderate our identity every day, either consciously or unconsciously. It's been studied for thousands of years. It's in books you've read, movies you've watched. It's been done for fun, for comic relief, and also it's been done to solve mind-shattering problems. But now we start to really unwind this question of physical identity, the one concrete thing we thought was so much more certain...! and things get _really_ interesting. This is a different level, where there's maybe not such a need to hide or hide from this departure from "this one idea of who I am" which is really just a mess of a complex of ideas. > what uses do you anticipate for a more [fluid? porous? plural?] self-regard? For one: More, and healthier, exposure to alternatives. Your identity is almost synonymous with your subjective past. To that degree, you're screwed in a lot of ways. To give a personal example, I was born into a cult. I was screwed from birth, in that way. One of the best tools I had in removing myself from that environment was the concept of an "online identity" which could be moderated, intentionally, into whatever it needed to be to help me explore alternative perceptions of what it was I was involved in. I could even try on a non-cult identity, and write, online, from the perspective of someone who had freed themselves. And then I could consider how that felt, and reflect on what I learned. Did it kill me? No. Am I in hell now? Nope. etc. Consider the millions of various points of identity just like that. Not just cults, no way! Am I Coke or Pepsi? eh, boring. Am I...which race am I? Is that a tricky question in the future? And from the outside, will I get better treatment from medical professionals if I can moderate my physical presentation at will? Wow so many random questions that can be asked for learning's sake. But again, to emphasize--I love and respect the unknown. I don't have answers, only openness where I don't want to have certainty anymore, because that c-word makes it a little too hard to solve big problems, or a little too easy to avoid them. Don't leave the cult man, you'll lose all your certainty. Hope that helps, a little, or examples, a little.
  - walleeee 5y ago
    thanks for the super thoughtful reply!
- kingcharles 5y ago
  I think the advent of DeepTomCruise [1] make us rethink the solidity of identity. A majority of those watching the videos appear to believe it is the real Tom Cruise, and really, there is no good way to tell any longer whether it is or not, without reference to external information. There is no reason now that Tom Cruise even needs to exist as a real person, or needs to ever act in a movie ever again. Tom Cruise can just become an abstract concept, no longer a living object. Perhaps it is Tom Cruise himself in these videos. Perhaps the real Tom Cruise no longer exists. Perhaps the whole thing is an elaborate art project. Our certainty of its falsity is tied solely to whether we believe the story of those who claim to have created the videos. Is it easier to create fake videos of Tom Cruise or to create real videos of Tom Cruise and a fake story? What is a Tom Cruise? [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@deeptomcruise https://www.tiktok.com/@deeptomcruise

walleeee 5y ago

how in particular do you think this sort of work might inform interpretations of personal identity? what uses do you anticipate for a more [fluid? porous? plural?] self-regard?

themodelplumber 5y ago
Hmm, that would go into specifics, which IMO are kind of tenuous from the start since the point of a spitball is to be open to unknowns. So with that said, some ideas could be started around topics like 1) massive identity theft causing a re-thinking of identity 2) creativity and constraints around the moderation of physical identity and 3) technical-presentational dynamics surrounding physical presence and the moderation of identity presentation in a physical presence context. Any one of these is a great setup for the question: How do we interpret personal identity? And this--again just IMO--would be an amazing point at which to say, "look, if the only word-tool we can use is 'identity' to describe this crisis/opportunity, then maybe all we have is a metaphorical hammer and we have all these endless annoying nails--in the form of identity questions--to hammer down. But if we had maybe some other word-tools to use instead of 'identity', maybe this really would look more like an opportunity to move humanity one more step up the evolutionary ladder." We already moderate our identity every day, either consciously or unconsciously. It's been studied for thousands of years. It's in books you've read, movies you've watched. It's been done for fun, for comic relief, and also it's been done to solve mind-shattering problems. But now we start to really unwind this question of physical identity, the one concrete thing we thought was so much more certain...! and things get _really_ interesting. This is a different level, where there's maybe not such a need to hide or hide from this departure from "this one idea of who I am" which is really just a mess of a complex of ideas. > what uses do you anticipate for a more [fluid? porous? plural?] self-regard? For one: More, and healthier, exposure to alternatives. Your identity is almost synonymous with your subjective past. To that degree, you're screwed in a lot of ways. To give a personal example, I was born into a cult. I was screwed from birth, in that way. One of the best tools I had in removing myself from that environment was the concept of an "online identity" which could be moderated, intentionally, into whatever it needed to be to help me explore alternative perceptions of what it was I was involved in. I could even try on a non-cult identity, and write, online, from the perspective of someone who had freed themselves. And then I could consider how that felt, and reflect on what I learned. Did it kill me? No. Am I in hell now? Nope. etc. Consider the millions of various points of identity just like that. Not just cults, no way! Am I Coke or Pepsi? eh, boring. Am I...which race am I? Is that a tricky question in the future? And from the outside, will I get better treatment from medical professionals if I can moderate my physical presentation at will? Wow so many random questions that can be asked for learning's sake. But again, to emphasize--I love and respect the unknown. I don't have answers, only openness where I don't want to have certainty anymore, because that c-word makes it a little too hard to solve big problems, or a little too easy to avoid them. Don't leave the cult man, you'll lose all your certainty. Hope that helps, a little, or examples, a little.
- walleeee 5y ago
  thanks for the super thoughtful reply!
kingcharles 5y ago
I think the advent of DeepTomCruise [1] make us rethink the solidity of identity. A majority of those watching the videos appear to believe it is the real Tom Cruise, and really, there is no good way to tell any longer whether it is or not, without reference to external information. There is no reason now that Tom Cruise even needs to exist as a real person, or needs to ever act in a movie ever again. Tom Cruise can just become an abstract concept, no longer a living object. Perhaps it is Tom Cruise himself in these videos. Perhaps the real Tom Cruise no longer exists. Perhaps the whole thing is an elaborate art project. Our certainty of its falsity is tied solely to whether we believe the story of those who claim to have created the videos. Is it easier to create fake videos of Tom Cruise or to create real videos of Tom Cruise and a fake story? What is a Tom Cruise? [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@deeptomcruise https://www.tiktok.com/@deeptomcruise