5 ms·

This is really a non-story going into an election year. I have never heard of a non-compete being enforced here and the right to disconnect is a guideline with

This is really a non-story going into an election year. I have never heard of a non-compete being enforced here and the right to disconnect is a guideline with absolutely no teeth.

belval 5y ago
I agree that non-competes being enforced are uncommon. I've never even heard of it happening in Canada. That being said, my contract with AWS stipulates that I can't work for their competitors, it's insanely wide so I don't see how it could realistically be enforced, but I still signed it which means that technically I can't work for Azure/GCP. I would much rather see the practice outlawed entirely so as to not have to worry about it.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  They get enforced all the time, with sales, marketing, and executives. I think that lower-on-the-totem-pole folks are unlikely to suffer, but HR departments love to have as much ammo as possible.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Is it just an American boilerplate type thing? Americans just think they should have non-competes? As I work for an American parent company and my non-compete covers basically any other security or enterprise company. No IBM or EY or SAP for me. Ironically the subsidiary I work for is included on the list and the list includes no actual direct competitors. So walking away to our competitor and building them the exact same thing is interestingly legally fine.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > Is it just an American boilerplate type thing? Americans just think they should have non-competes? No, they aren’t even legal in California so it’s just some employers and in some states. The financial ones in NY are actually pretty reasonable because employers will pay you during the time after you leave when you aren’t allowed to go to a competitor. Not sure if that’s legally require there or just the market expectation.
    - dilyevsky 5y ago
      AWS is based in Seattle and WA does have non competes so almost every tech company there will try to have you sign one. One of the reasons why Seattle will never become a real tech hub. And I’ve never seen any stipulations of payment while non compete is pending for engineering roles
    - eru 5y ago
      Are you mixing up gardening leave and non-competes? In any case, I think above some level of compensation basically all crazy clauses that people agree to voluntarily should be fine as far as the law is concerned: there's no need to protect well-off people from themselves. There might or might not be an argument that poor people need to be protected from themselves like little children, and thus that there should be some contracts they shouldn't be allowed to enter. (Just like we only allow some very carefully considered contracts for children to enter into. Eg buying candy is fine; but going into debt is not enforceable against them.)
    - destitude 5y ago
      Correction, MOST USA states still allow non-compete clauses.
      - pkaye 5y ago
        Seems like California, North Dakota and Oklahoma are the ones that don't allow non-compete clauses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause
  - wheelinsupial 5y ago
    I’m in the Vancouver, BC area and there are a few Canadian companies that have non-competes that I’ve heard of. These are not tech based companies either.
- bawolff 5y ago
  I had an interview with amazon (canada) once. In order to get to the onsite interview (not a job offer, just the interview) they wanted me to sign a crazy non-compete (contingent on me accepting an offer if i was eventually offered one) that forbid me on working for any compeititor to amazon at all, including areas they intend to compete in the future, even if i was unaware of their future plans to compete. It seemed obviously unenforcible, almost to the point of being comical. But i took it as a giant red flag and declined the interview.
II2II 5y ago
I have known people who have declined work over non-compete clauses since it adds an element of risk to accepting the position. I am talking about those with low income who cannot afford to hire a lawyer to tell their ex-employer's lawyer to take a hike since such clauses are non-enforceable. With respect to the right to disconnect, simply having a written policy will help in many instances. I have worked for organizations where upper management generally frowned upon employees being contacted outside of work hours for anything more than checking a person's availability to work or telling a person not to report to work. Yet lower levels of management never seem to receive that message (possibly because they are expected to be on call).
- zdragnar 5y ago
  What low income jobs have non-compete clauses? Not that I don't believe you, just trying to wrap my head around it. A non-compete is (ostensibly) intended to protect employers' trade-secret-esque internal knowledge and practices, which low income jobs don't really get much exposure to. Granted, many non-competes are legal boilerplate that businesses probably shouldn't need, but I can't imagine a business actually doing a cost/benefit analysis on paying legal to go after someone who makes peanuts.
  - mbarbar 5y ago
    Here is an example from a sandwich shop: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idUSKBN13W2JA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idU...
    - barsonme 5y ago
      FWIW that was only intended for store managers, who are (or at least were) flown to Champagne, IL for multiple weeks of training. Having worked at JJ’s, I don’t think they were taught anything remotely with a non-compete. I think they just didn’t want somebody becoming a manager and then using that to get a better job across the street. Training employees is expensive. But that was their rationale, anyway.
vkou 5y ago
Non-competes don't have to be enforced to have a chilling effect. Your new employer may refuse to hire you because they don't want to get into the legal fight that determines whether or not non-competes have teeth. An outright ban assuages a lot of those fears.
- Auracle 5y ago
  I live in a rural area and I know of someone that happened to. They worked for Hormel, jumped ship to another employer in the food production business who found out they had signed a noncompete. They got let go and no longer had any job.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  Never had a new employer request a former employer’s contract either. That sounds really unusual.
honkdaddy 5y ago
I still feel as if a guideline with no teeth is better than no guideline at all.
Kranar 5y ago
It cost me almost half a million dollars over 6 years to defend myself against a lawsuit that would have otherwise been dismissed had it genuinely been the case that non-competes were unenforceable by statute. The commencement of the lawsuit: https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-suing-jitneytrade-and-co-conspirators-for-41-900-000.html https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui... The settlement: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/jitneytrade-inc-announces-settlement-agreement-850632086.html https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/jitneytrade-inc-announ... For the most part that settlement happened because the company suing me went bankrupt and its successor didn't feel like continuing to pay legal fees for a case they knew they would lose. Ordinarily I'd be able to recoup legal fees, but I was advised that recouping fees from a bankrupt entity is all but impossible.
- bawolff 5y ago
  > It cost me almost half a million dollars over 6 years to defend myself against a lawsuit that would have otherwise been dismissed had it genuinely been the case that non-competes were unenforceable by statute. > The commencement of the lawsuit: > https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui... Based on that link, the issue at hand doesn't seem to be about a non-compete (?)
gnopgnip 5y ago
In the tech industry, they are commonly enforced in sales roles

This is really a non-story going into an election year. I have never heard of a non-compete being enforced here and the right to disconnect is a guideline with absolutely no teeth.

belval 5y ago

I agree that non-competes being enforced are uncommon. I've never even heard of it happening in Canada. That being said, my contract with AWS stipulates that I can't work for their competitors, it's insanely wide so I don't see how it could realistically be enforced, but I still signed it which means that technically I can't work for Azure/GCP. I would much rather see the practice outlawed entirely so as to not have to worry about it.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
They get enforced all the time, with sales, marketing, and executives. I think that lower-on-the-totem-pole folks are unlikely to suffer, but HR departments love to have as much ammo as possible.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Is it just an American boilerplate type thing? Americans just think they should have non-competes? As I work for an American parent company and my non-compete covers basically any other security or enterprise company. No IBM or EY or SAP for me. Ironically the subsidiary I work for is included on the list and the list includes no actual direct competitors. So walking away to our competitor and building them the exact same thing is interestingly legally fine.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > Is it just an American boilerplate type thing? Americans just think they should have non-competes? No, they aren’t even legal in California so it’s just some employers and in some states. The financial ones in NY are actually pretty reasonable because employers will pay you during the time after you leave when you aren’t allowed to go to a competitor. Not sure if that’s legally require there or just the market expectation.
  - dilyevsky 5y ago
    AWS is based in Seattle and WA does have non competes so almost every tech company there will try to have you sign one. One of the reasons why Seattle will never become a real tech hub. And I’ve never seen any stipulations of payment while non compete is pending for engineering roles
  - eru 5y ago
    Are you mixing up gardening leave and non-competes? In any case, I think above some level of compensation basically all crazy clauses that people agree to voluntarily should be fine as far as the law is concerned: there's no need to protect well-off people from themselves. There might or might not be an argument that poor people need to be protected from themselves like little children, and thus that there should be some contracts they shouldn't be allowed to enter. (Just like we only allow some very carefully considered contracts for children to enter into. Eg buying candy is fine; but going into debt is not enforceable against them.)
  - destitude 5y ago
    Correction, MOST USA states still allow non-compete clauses.
    - pkaye 5y ago
      Seems like California, North Dakota and Oklahoma are the ones that don't allow non-compete clauses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  I’m in the Vancouver, BC area and there are a few Canadian companies that have non-competes that I’ve heard of. These are not tech based companies either.
bawolff 5y ago
I had an interview with amazon (canada) once. In order to get to the onsite interview (not a job offer, just the interview) they wanted me to sign a crazy non-compete (contingent on me accepting an offer if i was eventually offered one) that forbid me on working for any compeititor to amazon at all, including areas they intend to compete in the future, even if i was unaware of their future plans to compete. It seemed obviously unenforcible, almost to the point of being comical. But i took it as a giant red flag and declined the interview.

II2II 5y ago

I have known people who have declined work over non-compete clauses since it adds an element of risk to accepting the position. I am talking about those with low income who cannot afford to hire a lawyer to tell their ex-employer's lawyer to take a hike since such clauses are non-enforceable. With respect to the right to disconnect, simply having a written policy will help in many instances. I have worked for organizations where upper management generally frowned upon employees being contacted outside of work hours for anything more than checking a person's availability to work or telling a person not to report to work. Yet lower levels of management never seem to receive that message (possibly because they are expected to be on call).

zdragnar 5y ago
What low income jobs have non-compete clauses? Not that I don't believe you, just trying to wrap my head around it. A non-compete is (ostensibly) intended to protect employers' trade-secret-esque internal knowledge and practices, which low income jobs don't really get much exposure to. Granted, many non-competes are legal boilerplate that businesses probably shouldn't need, but I can't imagine a business actually doing a cost/benefit analysis on paying legal to go after someone who makes peanuts.
- mbarbar 5y ago
  Here is an example from a sandwich shop: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idUSKBN13W2JA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idU...
  - barsonme 5y ago
    FWIW that was only intended for store managers, who are (or at least were) flown to Champagne, IL for multiple weeks of training. Having worked at JJ’s, I don’t think they were taught anything remotely with a non-compete. I think they just didn’t want somebody becoming a manager and then using that to get a better job across the street. Training employees is expensive. But that was their rationale, anyway.

vkou 5y ago

Non-competes don't have to be enforced to have a chilling effect. Your new employer may refuse to hire you because they don't want to get into the legal fight that determines whether or not non-competes have teeth. An outright ban assuages a lot of those fears.

Auracle 5y ago
I live in a rural area and I know of someone that happened to. They worked for Hormel, jumped ship to another employer in the food production business who found out they had signed a noncompete. They got let go and no longer had any job.
digianarchist 5y ago
Never had a new employer request a former employer’s contract either. That sounds really unusual.

honkdaddy 5y ago

I still feel as if a guideline with no teeth is better than no guideline at all.

Kranar 5y ago

It cost me almost half a million dollars over 6 years to defend myself against a lawsuit that would have otherwise been dismissed had it genuinely been the case that non-competes were unenforceable by statute. The commencement of the lawsuit: https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-suing-jitneytrade-and-co-conspirators-for-41-900-000.html https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui... The settlement: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/jitneytrade-inc-announces-settlement-agreement-850632086.html https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/jitneytrade-inc-announ... For the most part that settlement happened because the company suing me went bankrupt and its successor didn't feel like continuing to pay legal fees for a case they knew they would lose. Ordinarily I'd be able to recoup legal fees, but I was advised that recouping fees from a bankrupt entity is all but impossible.

bawolff 5y ago
> It cost me almost half a million dollars over 6 years to defend myself against a lawsuit that would have otherwise been dismissed had it genuinely been the case that non-competes were unenforceable by statute. > The commencement of the lawsuit: > https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui https://www.so-co-it.com/post/222748/orbixa-technologies-sui... Based on that link, the issue at hand doesn't seem to be about a non-compete (?)

gnopgnip 5y ago

In the tech industry, they are commonly enforced in sales roles