5 ms·

Should we extend this attitude to everyone else that taxes the healthcare system? If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? If you’re fat and

Should we extend this attitude to everyone else that taxes the healthcare system? If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? If you’re fat and get diabetes should we? Etc etc. This is inhumane thinking and shouldn’t be encouraged.

sangnoir 5y ago
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? Tangentally related: in some jurisdictions[1], not informing your partner that you have HIV and exposing them to the risk of infection is a criminal offense. 1. The United Kingdom, and New Zealand, if memory serves.
vaxxz 5y ago
It’s a wee bit different to aid and abet an ongoing global pandemic.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  HIV and obesity have both been called epidemics, so it's a fair comparison.
  - jackson1442 5y ago
    I can't catch HIV or obesity by sitting next to someone on a train, so is it really?
    - dehrmann 5y ago
      > obesity https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html You might be able to in the sense that it normalizes it. It's a little like how suicides can be "contagious."
    - argvargc 5y ago
      Actually you can. They might be eating a sugary dessert, and then you think "mmm, I'd like one of those". And the person might not even need to be there physically, they could just be an image. Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies? All ice-cream manufacturers? What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison. Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others? 1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly. Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh? Do remember here, COVID is NOTHING compared to smoking. That is, by supporting such measures against COVID and not against smoking or any other preventable cause of death, you're effectively a "murderer". As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself, though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself. No need to thank me, it's just common human decency.
      - jackson1442 5y ago
        > Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others? Please put the nazi card back into the deck. You and I both know that we are not in nazi germany, nor is asking people to get a jab (and to accept that their actions - or inactions - have consequences) even remotely close to the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust. I think the rest of your comment is worth responding to, and I will do so in a separate comment. However this is such an inappropriate comment that it deserves its own reply. I've linked some resources below where you can learn more about the Holocaust because it's clear that you're at least a little bit uninformed. US Holocaust memorial museum - https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust National WWII museum - https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust This one's geared towards educators (and unfortunately requires you to register) but has some excellent resources if you're willing to work through that - https://education.mjhnyc.org/ https://education.mjhnyc.org/
        argvargc 5y ago
        Thanks for the "education". Your claim of my "ignorance" essentially insults my entire existence. I can guarantee that I personally know a fuck-tonne more about this issue than you ever can. For your education, look up the several videos of holocaust survivors, and those who lives through other oppressive dictatorships, speaking out against what they perceive as a present-day repeat of exactly the conditions that lead to those horrors. For example, any recent interview with Vera Sharav or any recent speech/press conference by Romanian MEP Cristian Terhes. (And if you don't find YT serving those up go to bitchute or odysee.) And do bear in mind please, that one of the defining characteristics of the path to this level of societal degredation, is precisely that the majority of people at the time do not believe it could possibly be happening, and mock those who say it is, whilst simultaneously encouraging their silencing and censorship.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
intorio 5y ago
Are any of those easily helped by a vaccine?
- gruez 5y ago
  If you expand "vaccine" to "medical interventions", then yes. Bariatric surgeries are quite effective at cutting mortality. >Long-term studies show the procedures result in significant long-term loss of weight, recovery from diabetes, improvement in cardiovascular risk factors, and a mortality reduction from 40% to 23%.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    Having your stomach stapled is am extreme and expensive surgery requiring multiple doctors and support staff, lots of recovery time and years to fully take effect. It also carries a high risk of serious side effects. It is nothing like a vaccine.
- yucky 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
niklasbuschmann 5y ago
If there were a vaccine against HIV, and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess?
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess? HIV spreads more slowly so it doesn’t threaten to overwhelm hospitals, at least not in developed nations, but it is an ongoing pandemic which has killed at least 36 million people, including 680k in 2020, and is spread mostly by risky behavioral choices like drugs and unprotected sex. The social cost is incalculable let alone the costs to individuals and families! So, I think the same principle applies and the same judgement ought to be given if any is given at all. Of course it shouldn’t, because the world is a mad house and we’re all inpatients.
darkerside 5y ago
...Maybe? Not in a dehumanizing way, but cultural norms are sometimes there for a reason. As unfortunate as it is, being overweight is unhealthy, and while I don't think people should be looked at as less than human, they should know that their life choices are frowned upon.
xwolfi 5y ago
You shift from victim to guilty when there s an easy way out of your mistakes. Yes getting HIV can often be the result of a preventable mistake, but if there was a way out once you got it and you refused again and again to take it to relieve the group tax burden and instead relied on expensive insured medication, I d shame you... Diabete is frankly unclear since you can get it during childhood and again no way to alleviate it that people arent already massively taking.
lkrubner 5y ago
"If you’re fat and get diabetes should we?" Under crisis standards of care, the fact that you are fat can be used to allow you to die. Likewise, and especially, if you have diabetes, that will be cited as a reason why you were allowed to die. Likewise HIV or hepatitis, or any other health problem that you might have. Any health problem that makes you less than perfect can be cited as a reason why doctors might be allow you to die. Even a person with no known health conditions, but who is simply old, can have their age cited against them under crisis standards of care. So it is understandable why some of us are angry with those who drove hospital after hospital to crisis standards of care during the later half of this pandemic, when there was a vaccine that could have completely changed the situation. In a developed nation, we do not expect many situations to happen during out lifetimes that would drive a hospital to crisis standards of care. That some citizens recklessly put themselves into a situation where they could clog up the hospitals, to the point where the hospitals had to invoke crisis standards of care, demonstrates an amoral style of reasoning on their part.
threatofrain 5y ago
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? This is already a matter of medical, policy, religious, and national history, and that story has not yet concluded with the many lives already ended. And if you knowingly expose people to HIV, that is generally both a criminal and civil matter. Meanwhile defiance of masks and avoidance of free vaccines is political patriotism — a brave defense of liberty itself.
feoren 5y ago
> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? If you vehemently oppose the use of condoms, physically and verbally assault people who try to distribute condoms in areas at high risk for HIV, retweet conspiracy theories about how HIV is not real and condoms were made by evil people for evil purposes, attack the doctors who are trying to treat HIV, etc., then yes: shame on you.

sangnoir 5y ago

> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? Tangentally related: in some jurisdictions[1], not informing your partner that you have HIV and exposing them to the risk of infection is a criminal offense. 1. The United Kingdom, and New Zealand, if memory serves.

vaxxz 5y ago

It’s a wee bit different to aid and abet an ongoing global pandemic.

dehrmann 5y ago
HIV and obesity have both been called epidemics, so it's a fair comparison.
- jackson1442 5y ago
  I can't catch HIV or obesity by sitting next to someone on a train, so is it really?
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    > obesity https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/health/25cnd-fat.html You might be able to in the sense that it normalizes it. It's a little like how suicides can be "contagious."
  - argvargc 5y ago
    Actually you can. They might be eating a sugary dessert, and then you think "mmm, I'd like one of those". And the person might not even need to be there physically, they could just be an image. Do we need to publicly shame and ostracise employees of all advertising and marketing companies? All ice-cream manufacturers? What about smoking? Smoking kills 10 million per year, COVID is a pittance by comparison. Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others? 1 million die from the effects of second hand smoke - which can come off of clothes, even imperceptibly. Best to know about it, and give them a wide berth. Eg, probably a good idea ban them from going into shops at all. And from buying food, starve them out of the habit, eh? Do remember here, COVID is NOTHING compared to smoking. That is, by supporting such measures against COVID and not against smoking or any other preventable cause of death, you're effectively a "murderer". As such, I'll be giving you and folks like you a wide berth myself, though I wouldn't go as far as restricting your ability to feed yourself. No need to thank me, it's just common human decency.
    - jackson1442 5y ago
      > Should smokers wear a yellow cigarette badge to distinguish them from others? Please put the nazi card back into the deck. You and I both know that we are not in nazi germany, nor is asking people to get a jab (and to accept that their actions - or inactions - have consequences) even remotely close to the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust. I think the rest of your comment is worth responding to, and I will do so in a separate comment. However this is such an inappropriate comment that it deserves its own reply. I've linked some resources below where you can learn more about the Holocaust because it's clear that you're at least a little bit uninformed. US Holocaust memorial museum - https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust https://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust National WWII museum - https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/holocaust This one's geared towards educators (and unfortunately requires you to register) but has some excellent resources if you're willing to work through that - https://education.mjhnyc.org/ https://education.mjhnyc.org/
      - argvargc 5y ago
        Thanks for the "education". Your claim of my "ignorance" essentially insults my entire existence. I can guarantee that I personally know a fuck-tonne more about this issue than you ever can. For your education, look up the several videos of holocaust survivors, and those who lives through other oppressive dictatorships, speaking out against what they perceive as a present-day repeat of exactly the conditions that lead to those horrors. For example, any recent interview with Vera Sharav or any recent speech/press conference by Romanian MEP Cristian Terhes. (And if you don't find YT serving those up go to bitchute or odysee.) And do bear in mind please, that one of the defining characteristics of the path to this level of societal degredation, is precisely that the majority of people at the time do not believe it could possibly be happening, and mock those who say it is, whilst simultaneously encouraging their silencing and censorship.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

intorio 5y ago

Are any of those easily helped by a vaccine?

gruez 5y ago
If you expand "vaccine" to "medical interventions", then yes. Bariatric surgeries are quite effective at cutting mortality. >Long-term studies show the procedures result in significant long-term loss of weight, recovery from diabetes, improvement in cardiovascular risk factors, and a mortality reduction from 40% to 23%.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Having your stomach stapled is am extreme and expensive surgery requiring multiple doctors and support staff, lots of recovery time and years to fully take effect. It also carries a high risk of serious side effects. It is nothing like a vaccine.
yucky 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

niklasbuschmann 5y ago

If there were a vaccine against HIV, and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess?

nyokodo 5y ago
> and an ongoing pandemic overwhelming hospitals, then yes I guess? HIV spreads more slowly so it doesn’t threaten to overwhelm hospitals, at least not in developed nations, but it is an ongoing pandemic which has killed at least 36 million people, including 680k in 2020, and is spread mostly by risky behavioral choices like drugs and unprotected sex. The social cost is incalculable let alone the costs to individuals and families! So, I think the same principle applies and the same judgement ought to be given if any is given at all. Of course it shouldn’t, because the world is a mad house and we’re all inpatients.

darkerside 5y ago

...Maybe? Not in a dehumanizing way, but cultural norms are sometimes there for a reason. As unfortunate as it is, being overweight is unhealthy, and while I don't think people should be looked at as less than human, they should know that their life choices are frowned upon.

xwolfi 5y ago

You shift from victim to guilty when there s an easy way out of your mistakes. Yes getting HIV can often be the result of a preventable mistake, but if there was a way out once you got it and you refused again and again to take it to relieve the group tax burden and instead relied on expensive insured medication, I d shame you... Diabete is frankly unclear since you can get it during childhood and again no way to alleviate it that people arent already massively taking.

lkrubner 5y ago

"If you’re fat and get diabetes should we?" Under crisis standards of care, the fact that you are fat can be used to allow you to die. Likewise, and especially, if you have diabetes, that will be cited as a reason why you were allowed to die. Likewise HIV or hepatitis, or any other health problem that you might have. Any health problem that makes you less than perfect can be cited as a reason why doctors might be allow you to die. Even a person with no known health conditions, but who is simply old, can have their age cited against them under crisis standards of care. So it is understandable why some of us are angry with those who drove hospital after hospital to crisis standards of care during the later half of this pandemic, when there was a vaccine that could have completely changed the situation. In a developed nation, we do not expect many situations to happen during out lifetimes that would drive a hospital to crisis standards of care. That some citizens recklessly put themselves into a situation where they could clog up the hospitals, to the point where the hospitals had to invoke crisis standards of care, demonstrates an amoral style of reasoning on their part.

threatofrain 5y ago

> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? This is already a matter of medical, policy, religious, and national history, and that story has not yet concluded with the many lives already ended. And if you knowingly expose people to HIV, that is generally both a criminal and civil matter. Meanwhile defiance of masks and avoidance of free vaccines is political patriotism — a brave defense of liberty itself.

feoren 5y ago

> If you got HIV from unprotected sex, should we shame you? If you vehemently oppose the use of condoms, physically and verbally assault people who try to distribute condoms in areas at high risk for HIV, retweet conspiracy theories about how HIV is not real and condoms were made by evil people for evil purposes, attack the doctors who are trying to treat HIV, etc., then yes: shame on you.