5 ms·

Imagine insurers refusing to give you a service due to your predisposition to certain diseases...

by adabaed 5y ago

foobarbecue 5y ago
If you haven't seen Gattaca, you should
- adabaed 5y ago
  Yeah super good!!
- haihaibye 5y ago
  There should be a directors cut where the mission fails because of Vincent's hidden heart condition. Gattaca shows eugenics has been so vilified that the audience will root for a character who selfishly commits fraud, risking lives and scientific progress for his own vanity. The really scary fact is that there would be no need for a police state and segregation. The genetically enhanced would just completely dominate an open and fair competition.
  - est31 5y ago
    Gattaca shows a society in which eugenics, in hopes of creating a shortcut for people who have supposedly the better genes, devolved into a society where someone who did not have genetic augmentation could outcompete a whole bunch of genetically augmented people. In the movie, either the genetic augmentation didn't work (as well) as expected, or their advantage caused the augmented people to become lazy because they got covered in undeserved status no matter how little or much they worked, as everything depended on which genes they have been "bred" for. Then someone with supposedly bad genes could run circles around them just by working hard. Maybe some mixture, e.g. in order to protect those kids who fail at the task they have been "bred" for from considering themselves failed humans, gattaca's society adopted this model where they shower all kids in status who have the right genes. Maybe it's not the kids who are being protected but the companies selling the augmentations.
  - greggman3 5y ago
    100% Agree. Gattaca actually showed A SPACE PROGRAM running similar to the real space programs. I don't know about now but the first astronauts needed certain genes or they weren't allowed in. AFAIK that used to be true for fighter pilots. Want to be one you needed perfect eye sight. Bad genes = selected out.
ajuc 5y ago
It's amazing how many problems you avoid by having public health system.
- adabaed 5y ago
  You resolve part of them, but immediately generate others. Hybrid systems are the way to go. In Spain, for example, we have a private system but it is extremely inefficient in some areas (and very good in others). Of course, you can have private insurance, but you still have to pay your social security. Curiously, the only ones who can decide which system they want are the public servants...
  - siegfried-en 5y ago
    It's exactly the same in Portugal.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  You avoid the problem with medical debt, to be precise. You cannot really avoid the fundamental constraints - anywhere in the world, there are only so many doctors and so much money available for treatments. IDK if USA has a shortage of doctors, but plenty of European countries do. A country like Romania just cannot give its doctors big enough wages to stop them from seeking employment elsewhere, where they will get five to ten times as much (UK, Germany, Switzerland). As a result, local hospitals are seriously understaffed. Where I live, having personal connections to good doctors gives you an advantage - you will be examined and treated faster. Then there is outright nepotism. The outgroups are different than in America, but there are always people for whom the system sucks.
  - monopoledance 5y ago
    The argument was about "free-market" insurance contracts tho.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    That's a pretty poor way of pigeonholing the problem. Looking at the US healthcare system, it's obvious that many doctors' and nurses' talents are wasted doing bureaucratic paperwork. Simultaneously, if there is a genuine lack of healthcare providers, there is no price signal that would encourage more to enter the market. What you say may be somewhat true in the context of transmuting the US's "private" bureaucracy into bona fide "government". But it's certainly not a "fundamental constraint" that's impossible to solve. Rather it's a failure of organization, whether critiqued in terms of bottom-up market failure or top-down governance failure.
meltedcapacitor 5y ago
Protection from this comes from laws that ban DNA-based policies, not by being secretive about sequencing. If it is allowed, insurers will have no need to obtain DNA sequences in devious ways, they will just ask and refuse cover or charge more when clients refuse to get sampled.
- m12k 5y ago
  Sure, but being secretive about your DNA seems like the prudent course of action until those laws are in place
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    “Passed in 2008, a federal law called the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) made it illegal for health insurance providers in the United States to use genetic information in decisions about a person's health insurance eligibility or coverage.” Also prevents employment discrimination based on genetics. https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-Discrimination https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-... (disclosure: have had my DNA sequenced by multiple organizations, and it's publicly available)
    - jrumbut 5y ago
      What I worry about is having this data laundered through a couple of vendors. "How could we know our vendor's vendor was using genetic information in their proprietary risk score?" "How could we know our client's client was using our score for life, health, or auto insurance/employment/lending/etc decisions?" It's a "can't unring a bell" situation and the gaps in the regulations and the incentives for bad behavior are enormous.
      - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
        Because insurance is regulated against this. They can’t just Willy-nilly get data and “scores” from uncontrolled sources.
tekproxy 5y ago
Imagine gene therapy to fix the problems. After a few generations, many diseases will be extinct. There's a guy on YouTube doing diy gene therapy to treat his lactose intolerance so it's not exactly science fiction.
- jcims 5y ago
  The Thought Emporium https://youtube.com/c/thethoughtemporium https://youtube.com/c/thethoughtemporium He’s got a ton of other interesting projects, the DIY gene therapy is just one that stands out because it seems so risky.
  - godelski 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure he had a second video on how the effects started to ware off.
- godelski 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure the effect was temporary and he had to do it a second time. It's very important to note that this research is still very new and he was lucky that his genetic code was prime for that test. (I'm not against bio hackers btw. I think they provide a very good service though obviously more risky. No problems when that risk is on yourself but just trying to say "don't try this at home").

Imagine insurers refusing to give you a service due to your predisposition to certain diseases...

foobarbecue 5y ago

If you haven't seen Gattaca, you should

adabaed 5y ago
Yeah super good!!
haihaibye 5y ago
There should be a directors cut where the mission fails because of Vincent's hidden heart condition. Gattaca shows eugenics has been so vilified that the audience will root for a character who selfishly commits fraud, risking lives and scientific progress for his own vanity. The really scary fact is that there would be no need for a police state and segregation. The genetically enhanced would just completely dominate an open and fair competition.
- est31 5y ago
  Gattaca shows a society in which eugenics, in hopes of creating a shortcut for people who have supposedly the better genes, devolved into a society where someone who did not have genetic augmentation could outcompete a whole bunch of genetically augmented people. In the movie, either the genetic augmentation didn't work (as well) as expected, or their advantage caused the augmented people to become lazy because they got covered in undeserved status no matter how little or much they worked, as everything depended on which genes they have been "bred" for. Then someone with supposedly bad genes could run circles around them just by working hard. Maybe some mixture, e.g. in order to protect those kids who fail at the task they have been "bred" for from considering themselves failed humans, gattaca's society adopted this model where they shower all kids in status who have the right genes. Maybe it's not the kids who are being protected but the companies selling the augmentations.
- greggman3 5y ago
  100% Agree. Gattaca actually showed A SPACE PROGRAM running similar to the real space programs. I don't know about now but the first astronauts needed certain genes or they weren't allowed in. AFAIK that used to be true for fighter pilots. Want to be one you needed perfect eye sight. Bad genes = selected out.

ajuc 5y ago

It's amazing how many problems you avoid by having public health system.

adabaed 5y ago
You resolve part of them, but immediately generate others. Hybrid systems are the way to go. In Spain, for example, we have a private system but it is extremely inefficient in some areas (and very good in others). Of course, you can have private insurance, but you still have to pay your social security. Curiously, the only ones who can decide which system they want are the public servants...
- siegfried-en 5y ago
  It's exactly the same in Portugal.
inglor_cz 5y ago
You avoid the problem with medical debt, to be precise. You cannot really avoid the fundamental constraints - anywhere in the world, there are only so many doctors and so much money available for treatments. IDK if USA has a shortage of doctors, but plenty of European countries do. A country like Romania just cannot give its doctors big enough wages to stop them from seeking employment elsewhere, where they will get five to ten times as much (UK, Germany, Switzerland). As a result, local hospitals are seriously understaffed. Where I live, having personal connections to good doctors gives you an advantage - you will be examined and treated faster. Then there is outright nepotism. The outgroups are different than in America, but there are always people for whom the system sucks.
- monopoledance 5y ago
  The argument was about "free-market" insurance contracts tho.
- mindslight 5y ago
  That's a pretty poor way of pigeonholing the problem. Looking at the US healthcare system, it's obvious that many doctors' and nurses' talents are wasted doing bureaucratic paperwork. Simultaneously, if there is a genuine lack of healthcare providers, there is no price signal that would encourage more to enter the market. What you say may be somewhat true in the context of transmuting the US's "private" bureaucracy into bona fide "government". But it's certainly not a "fundamental constraint" that's impossible to solve. Rather it's a failure of organization, whether critiqued in terms of bottom-up market failure or top-down governance failure.

meltedcapacitor 5y ago

Protection from this comes from laws that ban DNA-based policies, not by being secretive about sequencing. If it is allowed, insurers will have no need to obtain DNA sequences in devious ways, they will just ask and refuse cover or charge more when clients refuse to get sampled.

m12k 5y ago
Sure, but being secretive about your DNA seems like the prudent course of action until those laws are in place
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  “Passed in 2008, a federal law called the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) made it illegal for health insurance providers in the United States to use genetic information in decisions about a person's health insurance eligibility or coverage.” Also prevents employment discrimination based on genetics. https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-Discrimination https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/policy-issues/Genetic-... (disclosure: have had my DNA sequenced by multiple organizations, and it's publicly available)
  - jrumbut 5y ago
    What I worry about is having this data laundered through a couple of vendors. "How could we know our vendor's vendor was using genetic information in their proprietary risk score?" "How could we know our client's client was using our score for life, health, or auto insurance/employment/lending/etc decisions?" It's a "can't unring a bell" situation and the gaps in the regulations and the incentives for bad behavior are enormous.
    - andrewxdiamond 5y ago
      Because insurance is regulated against this. They can’t just Willy-nilly get data and “scores” from uncontrolled sources.

tekproxy 5y ago

Imagine gene therapy to fix the problems. After a few generations, many diseases will be extinct. There's a guy on YouTube doing diy gene therapy to treat his lactose intolerance so it's not exactly science fiction.

jcims 5y ago
The Thought Emporium https://youtube.com/c/thethoughtemporium https://youtube.com/c/thethoughtemporium He’s got a ton of other interesting projects, the DIY gene therapy is just one that stands out because it seems so risky.
- godelski 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure he had a second video on how the effects started to ware off.
godelski 5y ago
I'm pretty sure the effect was temporary and he had to do it a second time. It's very important to note that this research is still very new and he was lucky that his genetic code was prime for that test. (I'm not against bio hackers btw. I think they provide a very good service though obviously more risky. No problems when that risk is on yourself but just trying to say "don't try this at home").