5 ms·

I mean, if you're developing a missile guidance system or something that you do not intend to be used by your country's military, then I'd hope you have a very

by seoaeu 5y ago

I mean, if you're developing a missile guidance system or something that you do not intend to be used by your country's military, then I'd hope you have a very good explanation of who you do intend to use said technology. And if not, "shut up and get lost" seems like a pretty mild reaction...

R0b0t1 5y ago
Are people not remembering the issues with PGP?
- seoaeu 5y ago
  The issue with PGP was that encrypted communications were classified as a munition, not the concept of export controls. There is no civilian use for an air-to-air missile guidance system. There are plenty of private individuals with legitimate reasons to use encryption
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    > There is no civilian use for an air-to-air missile guidance system. People say things like this and then it turns out to be useful for ornithologists who want to use drones to tag wild birds. You never know what something is useful for until somebody uses it for that.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      It really shouldn't be very hard to tell whether a garage lab is a terror cell trying to shoot down passenger airlines, or a bunch of ornithologists trying to do better wildlife tracking. Honestly, I'm somewhat puzzled that people here seem to be refusing to acknowledge that the two can be distinguished
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        The "I know it when I see it" rule works right up to the point that you start enforcing it and Goodhart's Law crushes it into dust. Then all the terrorists you encounter are carrying ornithology equipment because their organization's lawyers told them to and/or actual ornithologists go to prison because they also bought some fireworks for independence day or have a cousin who lives in Iran.
jjoonathan 5y ago
Yesterday's top secret radar tech is today's telecom infrastructure. If we send goons to shut down every garage lab, we're hobbling ourselves and hitching our bandwagon to the ossified and crusty companies of yesteryear, the Ciscos and IBMs of the world that have degraded until they are ready to tip over the moment they get any real competition. Better to tip them over ourselves, so that we own the strong replacements, rather than let someone else do it for us and eat our lunch.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  This is also ignoring how the security system allegedly works in the US. It's based on contracts. Before the government will give you classified information, you agree not to share it except under particular terms. It's why the New York Times can publish the Pentagon Papers even though they're classified. They never agreed not to. But now people want to pretend there is some separate "national security" that overrides the First Amendment in cases of excessive government embarrassment even for people who never agreed not to publish whatever they want to. Somebody tell me where in the constitution it says "Congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech except when the government wants to keep something a secret."
  - monocasa 5y ago
    It's not just based on contracts, there's US code that prohibits sharing classified information. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 NYT gets away with it because they'd probably get off on a freedom of press defense, but the DoJ doesn't want to turn grey legal theory into case law. It's more useful to leave the possibility open that it won't go that way as a cudgel. But in the general case, national security restrictions to freedom of speech have passed judicial muster.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      > It's more useful to leave the possibility open that it won't go that way as a cudgel. In other words, it's plausibly unconstitutional. It's also kind of hilarious that the specific thing you're not allowed to disclose is how cryptosystems work, which is the thing all cryptographers agree doesn't have to be a secret in order to be secure or else your cryptosystem is completely broken and shouldn't be used.
FpUser 5y ago
>"if you're developing a missile guidance system" And what if I am developing a generic guidance system and somehow figured out the way to do everything with 1mm precision? It has immense value for civil use. Same for military. I would have very good explanation on how I intend to use it for peaceful purpose.

by seoaeu 5y ago

R0b0t1 5y ago

Are people not remembering the issues with PGP?

seoaeu 5y ago
The issue with PGP was that encrypted communications were classified as a munition, not the concept of export controls. There is no civilian use for an air-to-air missile guidance system. There are plenty of private individuals with legitimate reasons to use encryption
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  > There is no civilian use for an air-to-air missile guidance system. People say things like this and then it turns out to be useful for ornithologists who want to use drones to tag wild birds. You never know what something is useful for until somebody uses it for that.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    It really shouldn't be very hard to tell whether a garage lab is a terror cell trying to shoot down passenger airlines, or a bunch of ornithologists trying to do better wildlife tracking. Honestly, I'm somewhat puzzled that people here seem to be refusing to acknowledge that the two can be distinguished
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      The "I know it when I see it" rule works right up to the point that you start enforcing it and Goodhart's Law crushes it into dust. Then all the terrorists you encounter are carrying ornithology equipment because their organization's lawyers told them to and/or actual ornithologists go to prison because they also bought some fireworks for independence day or have a cousin who lives in Iran.

jjoonathan 5y ago

Yesterday's top secret radar tech is today's telecom infrastructure. If we send goons to shut down every garage lab, we're hobbling ourselves and hitching our bandwagon to the ossified and crusty companies of yesteryear, the Ciscos and IBMs of the world that have degraded until they are ready to tip over the moment they get any real competition. Better to tip them over ourselves, so that we own the strong replacements, rather than let someone else do it for us and eat our lunch.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
This is also ignoring how the security system allegedly works in the US. It's based on contracts. Before the government will give you classified information, you agree not to share it except under particular terms. It's why the New York Times can publish the Pentagon Papers even though they're classified. They never agreed not to. But now people want to pretend there is some separate "national security" that overrides the First Amendment in cases of excessive government embarrassment even for people who never agreed not to publish whatever they want to. Somebody tell me where in the constitution it says "Congress shall pass no law abridging the freedom of speech except when the government wants to keep something a secret."
- monocasa 5y ago
  It's not just based on contracts, there's US code that prohibits sharing classified information. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 NYT gets away with it because they'd probably get off on a freedom of press defense, but the DoJ doesn't want to turn grey legal theory into case law. It's more useful to leave the possibility open that it won't go that way as a cudgel. But in the general case, national security restrictions to freedom of speech have passed judicial muster.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    > It's more useful to leave the possibility open that it won't go that way as a cudgel. In other words, it's plausibly unconstitutional. It's also kind of hilarious that the specific thing you're not allowed to disclose is how cryptosystems work, which is the thing all cryptographers agree doesn't have to be a secret in order to be secure or else your cryptosystem is completely broken and shouldn't be used.

FpUser 5y ago

>"if you're developing a missile guidance system" And what if I am developing a generic guidance system and somehow figured out the way to do everything with 1mm precision? It has immense value for civil use. Same for military. I would have very good explanation on how I intend to use it for peaceful purpose.