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I'm sorry but what's the point here? Rich's talk was not even remotely aimed at HTMX yet this article is nothing but a shameless list of HTMX features.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
The point is that the hypermedia approach, which is what htmx (among other technologies, such as hotwire and unpoly) takes, can address many of the usability criticisms that Mr. Harris levels at MPAs, without abandoning the fundamental REST-ful web architecture.
- seumars 5y ago
  In that case it would be much more interesting to read about the "hypermedia approach" including its own downsides. For instance, the differences between SPA/MPA implementations are also directly linked to developer experience – most people simply prefer business logic to live inside components. Is that possible using a hypermedia approach? Who knows, but "we think our library is great" isn't particularly an instructive or interesting way of discussing this topic.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    you can find many such articles on the talk page at htmx: https://htmx.org/talk https://htmx.org/talk in this article we respond to specific criticisms of MPAs in terms of htmx, as it is a response to Mr Harris's talk
danpalmer 5y ago
The point is that Rich suggested that SPAs are the only way to solve these problems, and that MPAs can’t. This is a rebuttal from HTMX suggesting that MPAs can in fact solve these problems.
- earthboundkid 5y ago
  Rich wasn’t arguing for SPA but for hybrid SSR, so that seems like it’s a non-sequitur.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    As we mention in the article, we agree w/ Mr. Harris on the hybrid approach, but disagree on whether or not hypermedia or javascript/RPC should be the "primary" model.
- seumars 5y ago
  No, the entire point of borrowing the term transitional is "having the best of both worlds". The SPA/MPA comparison is about highlighting the best aspects of each method and envision ways of implementing both. Any decent framework nowadays can be used to implement "transitional" features, so HTMX using this as a way to plug their own is lazy and annoyingly counterproductive in this particular discussion.
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    we were asked multiple times for a response to Mr. Harris' talk, and so we gave one i think you are missing the hypermedia vs. RPC aspect of the discussion, and the javascript-everywhere vs. Hypermedia-On-Whatever-you'd-Like aspect of it, which i believe are relatively unique in the discussions i have seen but, it is fair, both laziness and self-promotion are forever a danger for me
    - seumars 5y ago
      I get the argument, though I wouldn’t call it unique given how long JS fatigue has been a thing. HTMX is just one piece of the puzzle though so a more correct comparison would be a mature application built with htmx vs say sveltekit, not a list of cherry picked htmx features.
      - recursivedoubts 5y ago
bckr 5y ago
> htmx.org > We have been asked for our opinion on the talk, so this essay is our response I had the same question, answered by the above.
qbasic_forever 5y ago
Read the third sentence of the link, they say they were explicitly asked to write about their/HTMX's response to Richard's talk. "We have been asked for our opinion on the talk, so this essay is our response."

recursivedoubts 5y ago

The point is that the hypermedia approach, which is what htmx (among other technologies, such as hotwire and unpoly) takes, can address many of the usability criticisms that Mr. Harris levels at MPAs, without abandoning the fundamental REST-ful web architecture.

seumars 5y ago
In that case it would be much more interesting to read about the "hypermedia approach" including its own downsides. For instance, the differences between SPA/MPA implementations are also directly linked to developer experience – most people simply prefer business logic to live inside components. Is that possible using a hypermedia approach? Who knows, but "we think our library is great" isn't particularly an instructive or interesting way of discussing this topic.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  you can find many such articles on the talk page at htmx: https://htmx.org/talk https://htmx.org/talk in this article we respond to specific criticisms of MPAs in terms of htmx, as it is a response to Mr Harris's talk

danpalmer 5y ago

The point is that Rich suggested that SPAs are the only way to solve these problems, and that MPAs can’t. This is a rebuttal from HTMX suggesting that MPAs can in fact solve these problems.

earthboundkid 5y ago
Rich wasn’t arguing for SPA but for hybrid SSR, so that seems like it’s a non-sequitur.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  As we mention in the article, we agree w/ Mr. Harris on the hybrid approach, but disagree on whether or not hypermedia or javascript/RPC should be the "primary" model.
seumars 5y ago
No, the entire point of borrowing the term transitional is "having the best of both worlds". The SPA/MPA comparison is about highlighting the best aspects of each method and envision ways of implementing both. Any decent framework nowadays can be used to implement "transitional" features, so HTMX using this as a way to plug their own is lazy and annoyingly counterproductive in this particular discussion.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  we were asked multiple times for a response to Mr. Harris' talk, and so we gave one i think you are missing the hypermedia vs. RPC aspect of the discussion, and the javascript-everywhere vs. Hypermedia-On-Whatever-you'd-Like aspect of it, which i believe are relatively unique in the discussions i have seen but, it is fair, both laziness and self-promotion are forever a danger for me
  - seumars 5y ago
    I get the argument, though I wouldn’t call it unique given how long JS fatigue has been a thing. HTMX is just one piece of the puzzle though so a more correct comparison would be a mature application built with htmx vs say sveltekit, not a list of cherry picked htmx features.
    - recursivedoubts 5y ago

bckr 5y ago

> htmx.org > We have been asked for our opinion on the talk, so this essay is our response I had the same question, answered by the above.

qbasic_forever 5y ago

Read the third sentence of the link, they say they were explicitly asked to write about their/HTMX's response to Richard's talk. "We have been asked for our opinion on the talk, so this essay is our response."