4 ms·

Thanks; so then the question is hth did the US manage to do this 5G allocation without thinking about the consequence?

bdamm 5y ago
FAA is actually quite good at ignoring theoretical non-problems. This is a sample notam for what the anti-interference alert will look like.
NavinF 5y ago
The bands seem to be 200mhz apart, which is a massive gap. If it was my decision, I wouldn’t think of any consequences. I still think this will only affect the crappiest of hardware with the crappiest of filters.
- hokumguru 5y ago
  Most people don't realize that the vast majority of GA aircraft are positively ancient though. When the average hardware among hobbyists is >30 years old the definition of "crappiest of hardware" takes on a different meaning.
  - huslage 5y ago
    There are no ancient GA aircraft with RADALTS or autoland systems.
    - slackfan 5y ago
      Considering that Garmin sells a full kit that integrates wit their displays (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/135561 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/135561), and autoland systems are just becoming available, I think you're incorrect in your assumptions.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Many GA airframes are old, but have been refitted with "glass cockpits" from Garmin or other avionics companies.
- p_l 5y ago
  a single radar altimeter's operating bandwidth can be as high as 200MHz, though (In fact, higher bandwidth increases resolution and quality of return)
  - NavinF 5y ago
    That has nothing to do with the frequency allocation. You can’t just transmit outside your band hoping it will increase resolution. And receiving 200mhz outside your band is not a thing we do in <current century>. DSP exists.
    - upofadown 5y ago
      I am pretty sure that the concern is with the results of front end overload, which happens well before DSP can be applied.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  To add detail... A major part of FCC testing of hardware is that it will work correctly even when other people are transmitting stuff on other frequency bands. So, provided all hardware out there went through the proper FCC tests, and nobody cheated, then it's guaranteed to work. The issue is that what the FCC rules say, and how devices in the field actually behave, can differ...
  - VLM 5y ago
    > The issue is that what the FCC rules say, and how devices in the field actually behave, can differ... That's the point of the situation. You replace the radar alt on aircraft #2153 and you do not trust it until its got a few hours and thats "ok". There are published minimums and a safe pilot will not push those with something that was just bolted together. The exciting part of 5G is its like every radar alt in every aircraft flying in the entire country just got replaced and can't be trusted until proven otherwise for a week or two. No biggie. I suspect some will indeed fail and be replaced and that'll be OK because nobody will be trusting their radar alt for the first week 5G is turned on. And after that it'll be "fine". Its kind of like the effect of EMP on cars. Disaster doomers like the mythical story of one "boom" and all cars stop, however comically unrealistic that is. Reality is you could still cause chaos logistically by hitting just 0.1% of all cars because our supply chain, even without covid, is absolute trash. And that's how this 5G/radar situation will turn out. Most likely the supply chain for avionics literally can't handle replacing, say, 0.1% of all radar alts currently installed in aircraft today. Can aircraft spruce and specialty literally ship 500 radar alts on monday if someone snapped their fingers and turned 5G on? Are there enough bored A+P mechanics to install all of them or will aircraft sit waiting for parts to arrive or get installed? Hilarious to consider a fixed base operator trying to order ten radar alts shipped by air priority and the air priority is down, so we're waiting on trucks. Then just like toilet paper or microcontrollers during covid, you'll have idiots panic buying two year supplies "because there's a shortage" resulting in plenty of people needing parts and having zero access. So if your average airline needs ten replacement radar alts per year and the supply chain might be F-d for two years they need to panic order twenty radar alts and stick them in closets (and order that RIGHT NOW like today...); they may only need three when 5G is turned up and then seventeen other aircraft will have to sit on the ground waiting for parts because "their" radar alt is sitting in someones hoard/warehouse.

FAA is actually quite good at ignoring theoretical non-problems. This is a sample notam for what the anti-interference alert will look like.

NavinF 5y ago

The bands seem to be 200mhz apart, which is a massive gap. If it was my decision, I wouldn’t think of any consequences. I still think this will only affect the crappiest of hardware with the crappiest of filters.

hokumguru 5y ago
Most people don't realize that the vast majority of GA aircraft are positively ancient though. When the average hardware among hobbyists is >30 years old the definition of "crappiest of hardware" takes on a different meaning.
- huslage 5y ago
  There are no ancient GA aircraft with RADALTS or autoland systems.
  - slackfan 5y ago
    Considering that Garmin sells a full kit that integrates wit their displays (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/135561 https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/135561), and autoland systems are just becoming available, I think you're incorrect in your assumptions.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Many GA airframes are old, but have been refitted with "glass cockpits" from Garmin or other avionics companies.
p_l 5y ago
a single radar altimeter's operating bandwidth can be as high as 200MHz, though (In fact, higher bandwidth increases resolution and quality of return)
- NavinF 5y ago
  That has nothing to do with the frequency allocation. You can’t just transmit outside your band hoping it will increase resolution. And receiving 200mhz outside your band is not a thing we do in <current century>. DSP exists.
  - upofadown 5y ago
    I am pretty sure that the concern is with the results of front end overload, which happens well before DSP can be applied.
londons_explore 5y ago
To add detail... A major part of FCC testing of hardware is that it will work correctly even when other people are transmitting stuff on other frequency bands. So, provided all hardware out there went through the proper FCC tests, and nobody cheated, then it's guaranteed to work. The issue is that what the FCC rules say, and how devices in the field actually behave, can differ...
- VLM 5y ago
  > The issue is that what the FCC rules say, and how devices in the field actually behave, can differ... That's the point of the situation. You replace the radar alt on aircraft #2153 and you do not trust it until its got a few hours and thats "ok". There are published minimums and a safe pilot will not push those with something that was just bolted together. The exciting part of 5G is its like every radar alt in every aircraft flying in the entire country just got replaced and can't be trusted until proven otherwise for a week or two. No biggie. I suspect some will indeed fail and be replaced and that'll be OK because nobody will be trusting their radar alt for the first week 5G is turned on. And after that it'll be "fine". Its kind of like the effect of EMP on cars. Disaster doomers like the mythical story of one "boom" and all cars stop, however comically unrealistic that is. Reality is you could still cause chaos logistically by hitting just 0.1% of all cars because our supply chain, even without covid, is absolute trash. And that's how this 5G/radar situation will turn out. Most likely the supply chain for avionics literally can't handle replacing, say, 0.1% of all radar alts currently installed in aircraft today. Can aircraft spruce and specialty literally ship 500 radar alts on monday if someone snapped their fingers and turned 5G on? Are there enough bored A+P mechanics to install all of them or will aircraft sit waiting for parts to arrive or get installed? Hilarious to consider a fixed base operator trying to order ten radar alts shipped by air priority and the air priority is down, so we're waiting on trucks. Then just like toilet paper or microcontrollers during covid, you'll have idiots panic buying two year supplies "because there's a shortage" resulting in plenty of people needing parts and having zero access. So if your average airline needs ten replacement radar alts per year and the supply chain might be F-d for two years they need to panic order twenty radar alts and stick them in closets (and order that RIGHT NOW like today...); they may only need three when 5G is turned up and then seventeen other aircraft will have to sit on the ground waiting for parts because "their" radar alt is sitting in someones hoard/warehouse.