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In the end, this is one of the fundamental issues with this new approach to the car market: manufacturers aren't satisfied with providing final goods anymore, a

In the end, this is one of the fundamental issues with this new approach to the car market: manufacturers aren't satisfied with providing final goods anymore, and consumers are forced to buy cars as services. Creating a car that inevitably becomes unusable, unless you essentially spend money enough to buy a mid sized sedan, that's genius from a market perspective, not so much for consumers.

jeffbee 5y ago
What's fundamental what again? There has never been an automobile without expendable, serviceable parts. Sometimes you need new bearings, u-joints, cv-joints, tires, piston rings, catalysts, whatever. Batteries are not different.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > Batteries are not different. Cost is. Batteries degrade over a fixed amount of time, no matter the measures taken. A traditional, well maintained engine would last far longer than a battery, and the repair costs are usually amounted in a gradual manner, i.e. traditional engines don't usually require large investments to keep running, but EVs do. In other words, not many people can afford EVs in the long term right now. Hopefully this will change, but the current state of things is what it is.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    That has nothing to do with your statement "consumers are forced to buy cars as services" which is hogwash.
    - manuelabeledo 5y ago
      It is not. Manufacturers are already going down that route, locking features behind paywalls. This is perhaps less evident: if only the original manufacturer and a handful of authorized shops are allowed to fix a car, users inevitably become income streams for the company, unless they get rid of the car, that is.
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        I agree that this is what manufacturers would want, but am hopeful that consumers will reject it, as they did years ago when manufacturers would deny warranty claims if they found a non-OE oil filter in use.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Yeah it's why I probably won't ever be buying an EV. The technology and repairability needs another decade or more to mature. I have no interest in paying indefinite rent to use a car.
- simonblack 5y ago
  The technology and repairability needs another decade or more to mature. The technology, repairability AND SUPPORTING INFRASTRUCTURE needs another THREE OR MORE decadeS to mature. The biggest barrier to widespread use of EVs is the almost complete lack of supporting infrastructure. How many countries in the world have electrical grids robust enough to support daily charging of tens or hundreds of millions of EVs at the one time? How many countries of the world have sufficient, widespread charging stations that can handle hundreds of EVs per hour? We have those facilities for ICEs today, all over the world, even in remote hard-to-reach off-grid locations. For EVS? Practically negligible.
echelon 5y ago
That's the market and competition evolving. Nobody is willing to leave the money on the table now that they see consumers will accept it. Steve Jobs popularized this model with the iPhone, and now it's permeating throughout all industries. Everything is becoming a service with the means to tax all economic activity involving the product. Consumers rent forever. Third parties pay for access. Monthly recurring revenue.
- leodriesch 5y ago
  Did he? The services model as a large-ish revenue stream for Apple was pushed mostly by Tim Cook IIRC. And certainly not with the first iPhone.
  - rzzzt 5y ago
    The original iPhone came with a Cingular/AT&T plan and was exclusive to that carrier for a long while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility#iPhone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility#iPhone
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Lots of phones were carrier exclusive. Or had different radios for different carriers.
      - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
        ... in the US. In Europe you had a SIM-locked phone if you bought it from the carrier, but you could also but a SIM-free one. Then when your contact was over (usually 12 to 24 months) you could require the removal of the lock.
    - alphabettsy 5y ago
      I’m not sure how that fits with Apple pursuing services. Without cellular the iPhone is just an iPod Touch and carrier exclusives are what the carriers often forced on manufacturers. See first Android phone with T-Mobile and Moto Droid with Verizon.

jeffbee 5y ago

What's fundamental what again? There has never been an automobile without expendable, serviceable parts. Sometimes you need new bearings, u-joints, cv-joints, tires, piston rings, catalysts, whatever. Batteries are not different.

manuelabeledo 5y ago
> Batteries are not different. Cost is. Batteries degrade over a fixed amount of time, no matter the measures taken. A traditional, well maintained engine would last far longer than a battery, and the repair costs are usually amounted in a gradual manner, i.e. traditional engines don't usually require large investments to keep running, but EVs do. In other words, not many people can afford EVs in the long term right now. Hopefully this will change, but the current state of things is what it is.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  That has nothing to do with your statement "consumers are forced to buy cars as services" which is hogwash.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    It is not. Manufacturers are already going down that route, locking features behind paywalls. This is perhaps less evident: if only the original manufacturer and a handful of authorized shops are allowed to fix a car, users inevitably become income streams for the company, unless they get rid of the car, that is.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      I agree that this is what manufacturers would want, but am hopeful that consumers will reject it, as they did years ago when manufacturers would deny warranty claims if they found a non-OE oil filter in use.

throwawayboise 5y ago

Yeah it's why I probably won't ever be buying an EV. The technology and repairability needs another decade or more to mature. I have no interest in paying indefinite rent to use a car.

simonblack 5y ago
The technology and repairability needs another decade or more to mature. The technology, repairability AND SUPPORTING INFRASTRUCTURE needs another THREE OR MORE decadeS to mature. The biggest barrier to widespread use of EVs is the almost complete lack of supporting infrastructure. How many countries in the world have electrical grids robust enough to support daily charging of tens or hundreds of millions of EVs at the one time? How many countries of the world have sufficient, widespread charging stations that can handle hundreds of EVs per hour? We have those facilities for ICEs today, all over the world, even in remote hard-to-reach off-grid locations. For EVS? Practically negligible.

echelon 5y ago

That's the market and competition evolving. Nobody is willing to leave the money on the table now that they see consumers will accept it. Steve Jobs popularized this model with the iPhone, and now it's permeating throughout all industries. Everything is becoming a service with the means to tax all economic activity involving the product. Consumers rent forever. Third parties pay for access. Monthly recurring revenue.

leodriesch 5y ago
Did he? The services model as a large-ish revenue stream for Apple was pushed mostly by Tim Cook IIRC. And certainly not with the first iPhone.
- rzzzt 5y ago
  The original iPhone came with a Cingular/AT&T plan and was exclusive to that carrier for a long while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility#iPhone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility#iPhone
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Lots of phones were carrier exclusive. Or had different radios for different carriers.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      ... in the US. In Europe you had a SIM-locked phone if you bought it from the carrier, but you could also but a SIM-free one. Then when your contact was over (usually 12 to 24 months) you could require the removal of the lock.
  - alphabettsy 5y ago
    I’m not sure how that fits with Apple pursuing services. Without cellular the iPhone is just an iPod Touch and carrier exclusives are what the carriers often forced on manufacturers. See first Android phone with T-Mobile and Moto Droid with Verizon.