4 ms·

How is it trivial to determine if a charge was fraudulent? Fraudulent charges are made in the exact same way as genuine ones.

endisneigh 5y ago
Depends on the nature of it - if the locale is different for example you can immediately reverse it and ask the vendor the fraudulent charge came from for details regarding the transaction and cross reference with the details about the owner of the card. However if you were using stolen cash it wouldn't really be possible. In this scenario the stolen private key and corresponding bitcoin is like stealing the cash. There's not really anyway to determine anything.
- anamexis 5y ago
  Maybe fraudulent wire transfers would be a better analogy, but I don't think this is fundamentally different than traditional banking. You determine if a charge was fraudulent by whether or not you authorized it.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    If you stole the private key how would you be able to determine who the original authorized user is? More simply: how can you distinguish someone who ceded their Bitcoin voluntarily to someone else vs someone who had it stolen from them with no centralized entities involved?
    - anamexis 5y ago
      My point is that you distinguish it in the exact same way as you distinguish a charge from a cloned credit card, or a bank transfer with a stolen password, or cash swiped out of a wallet. In all cases, the fraudulent money is used in exactly the same way as genuine use. If you figure out a bitcoin private key, that doesn't give you any more right to the money than figuring out a way to guess someone's bank password. And remediation would be the same.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        You're not really answering the question. It's fundamentally easier to do it with cloned credit cards, or banks because they are centralized entities dealing with individuals with verified identities. Even if you had someone's bank password, what will you do with the money? Transfer it to another bank? If so the wire will be reversed. Why? Because you can call someone and tell them to do so and an investigation will be done, but you will be presumed to be innocent first. So again, with Bitcoin, with no centralized entities involved, how can you distinguish between someone ceding their bitcoin to someone else vs. it being stolen from them?
        anamexis 5y ago
        If you wire money to a fraudulent account, it's gone forever. Unless you can track down the fraudsters for criminal charges.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        This isn't true though. Look up SWIFT Recall. Again, we're talking about Bitcoin here, not wire fraud.
        anamexis 5y ago
        I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, but you most certainly can irrevocably lose money with wire fraud. Even many debit cards are not covered from fraud. And we are comparing Bitcoin and wire fraud.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        OK so you basically don't have any response on how to distinguish Bitcoin being given to someone vs being stolen without centralized entities being involved, got it. I won't be responding to you anymore since you have nothing to add.
        5y ago

endisneigh 5y ago

Depends on the nature of it - if the locale is different for example you can immediately reverse it and ask the vendor the fraudulent charge came from for details regarding the transaction and cross reference with the details about the owner of the card. However if you were using stolen cash it wouldn't really be possible. In this scenario the stolen private key and corresponding bitcoin is like stealing the cash. There's not really anyway to determine anything.

anamexis 5y ago
Maybe fraudulent wire transfers would be a better analogy, but I don't think this is fundamentally different than traditional banking. You determine if a charge was fraudulent by whether or not you authorized it.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  If you stole the private key how would you be able to determine who the original authorized user is? More simply: how can you distinguish someone who ceded their Bitcoin voluntarily to someone else vs someone who had it stolen from them with no centralized entities involved?
  - anamexis 5y ago
    My point is that you distinguish it in the exact same way as you distinguish a charge from a cloned credit card, or a bank transfer with a stolen password, or cash swiped out of a wallet. In all cases, the fraudulent money is used in exactly the same way as genuine use. If you figure out a bitcoin private key, that doesn't give you any more right to the money than figuring out a way to guess someone's bank password. And remediation would be the same.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      You're not really answering the question. It's fundamentally easier to do it with cloned credit cards, or banks because they are centralized entities dealing with individuals with verified identities. Even if you had someone's bank password, what will you do with the money? Transfer it to another bank? If so the wire will be reversed. Why? Because you can call someone and tell them to do so and an investigation will be done, but you will be presumed to be innocent first. So again, with Bitcoin, with no centralized entities involved, how can you distinguish between someone ceding their bitcoin to someone else vs. it being stolen from them?
      - anamexis 5y ago
        If you wire money to a fraudulent account, it's gone forever. Unless you can track down the fraudsters for criminal charges.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        This isn't true though. Look up SWIFT Recall. Again, we're talking about Bitcoin here, not wire fraud.
        anamexis 5y ago
        I don't think this discussion is going anywhere, but you most certainly can irrevocably lose money with wire fraud. Even many debit cards are not covered from fraud. And we are comparing Bitcoin and wire fraud.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        OK so you basically don't have any response on how to distinguish Bitcoin being given to someone vs being stolen without centralized entities being involved, got it. I won't be responding to you anymore since you have nothing to add.
        5y ago