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Marketing. I would take everything on this website with a grain of salt. Take it from someone who has actually built an off-grid system, one that is relied up

Marketing. I would take everything on this website with a grain of salt. Take it from someone who has actually built an off-grid system, one that is relied upon for 24/7/365 living rather than mere vacation cottage. For example: OP re lead-acid battery options: "Heavy, cheap, easy to use and they work! Typically will last about 3-5 years. Slower charge rates than lithium, much heavier, and they cost way more in the long run." That is just plain incorrect. Lead-acid batteries regularly last a decade or more and are far cheaper than any lithium option at a given capacity. Look at nearly every 12v car or boat battery. You don't see those being replaced every 3-5 years. It is old reliable tech that just works. And, at a given price point, they can charge faster than lithium too. The downside of lead-acid? There is little profit to make in selling them. All the patents have expired. They don't need software to control them. They are mature, centuries-old technology. A thousand companies are making lead-acid batteries and you can get them cheap. They weigh more, but for residential installation that isn't an issue. The upside? Whereas lithium packs are a nightmare to recycle, lead-acid batteries hook into an established and profitable recycling system. They are the greener alternative to anything containing lithium.

bkjelden 5y ago
> Look at nearly every 12v car or boat battery. You don't see those being replaced every 3-5 years. It is old reliable tech that just works. I actually do see this all of the time. In decades of owning multiple cars I've found the batteries tend to fail so regularly at about the 5 year mark that you could set a watch to it. They are easy to find and inexpensive to replace, but they absolutely do have a limited lifespan.
- varelse 5y ago
  I would love to have found that magical car battery that doesn't die after 5 years or so. But the real comedy is that my EV is required to have one of them independent of all the lithium batteries, and if it discharges/fails, it's a whole fan dance to get into the car.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> it's a whole fan dance to get into the car. I've never jumped a full EV, but I have had to jump a couple hybrids after their 12v batteries ran flat. Can you not get to the 12v battery using a mechanical key? Any 12v jumpstart kit should provide enough voltage to activate the solenoid and get everything online.
    - varelse 5y ago
      The mechanical key on my EV, a Mustang Mach E, is a blank. but here's the fan dance to get into the car on a dead battery... https://youtu.be/AKK_Vt1m5TA https://youtu.be/AKK_Vt1m5TA
- convolvatron 5y ago
  Unsealed lead batteries that go through proper solution maintenance can definitely last decades - I have a forklift that keeps almost 1/2 its original charge and it was made in 1982. but I have flushed and cleaned the cells a few times and keep track of the pH when I top them off.
mlac 5y ago
This is a really good point, but my car batteries last between 3-5 years. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  What actually happened to your car battery to cause you to replace it? Did you do anything to fix it? Did you ever maintain it? Did you replace the fluid? Or did you just drive your car every day and then replaced the battery when the mechanic told you it was broken? It is normally cheaper to replace a standard car battery than attempt to maintain and fix it (100-200$) but in an off-grid situation many thousands of dollars are at stake, which makes maintenance and repair more practical than replacement. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-to-recondition-a-car-battery https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-to-recondit... https://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/learn/recondition-car-battery/ https://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/learn/recondition-car-ba...
  - zbrozek 5y ago
    Car batteries these days are sealed, so you don't really have much opportunity to replace their acid. A regularly-driven car isn't deep-cycling its battery, so I'm not sure what else you'd do to maintain it.
    - sandworm101 5y ago
      You test it regularly and hook it up to a good desulfator/maintainer when needed. A sealed battery might be acceptable for a car, if the owner has the money to replace it regularly, but not in an off-grid/residential situation.
  - mlac 5y ago
    It wasn’t about the mechanic telling me, it was about the car not starting anymore and the battery not taking any charge. And that’s why I asked - I honestly don’t know what steps are recommended to maintain a car battery (or if given the price it is worth the work). Thanks for the links - I’ll look later
passerby1 5y ago
That's interesting. Winters are cold where I'm originally from, and car batteries get replaced more frequently than once in 10 years. Where are you from? Your experience is very different.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Northern Alberta. Currently -30c. The 8yo battery in my car started my engine just fine this morning, with the help of my block and battery heaters that ran all night. I think people in the north might have longer battery life because of the harsh conditions. We probably spend more time/money on maintenance of vehicles precisely because we need them to start when very cold. I have noticed a deeper voltage drop when starting my car this winter. The battery might well be on its last legs but so long as it is still working I'll hold off replacing it. (I do carry a jumpstart kit in my trunk, right beside the snow chains.)
- quesera 5y ago
  GP did not specify, but it's likely that they are referring to deep-cycle lead acid batteries, not standard car batteries. Deep-cycle batteries are commonly used as the house power for RVs, boats, solar storage, etc.
gcp123 5y ago
The OP, Will Prowse knows what he’s talking about. He lives off the grid and meticulously documents all of his testing and research. When I was new to solar to battery power storage, I learned everything I needed to know from his website and videos to build my own off the grid system. Check out his YouTube channel.
zbrozek 5y ago
I can believe that lead-acid batteries in a thermally-regulated and immobile location would have a longevity advantage. But what magic dance are you doing to get car batteries to last longer than 5 years? I - and my parents, and seemingly everyone else I know - absolutely do seem to have to replace them at just about exactly that interval. That's not to say they aren't filling their role in a totally reasonable way, I'm just really curious how you're getting more life out of them than the rest of us.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Invest in a good trickle charger/maintainer/desulfurer (100-150$) and use it occasionally, especially if the car is going to sit for more than a week.
willprowseiv 5y ago
Will Prowse here. Are you kidding me? Those lead acids are kept at a high state of charge and not deeply discharged. Sure some expensive FLA can last much longer, but they are garbage. The coulombic efficiency is horrible. The internal resistance is awful. If I sold lead acid batteries, I would make way more money. You have no clue what you are talking about. And yes, when used for solar and deeply discharged, your lucky to get 3-5 years.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Tell that to my 12 year-old battery bank powering my family house (solar with diesel backup charge). It is a pack of deep cycle lead-acids that have served me very well. Of course they are watched and maintained regularly, and rarely ever dip below 75%. The only use case I've ever seen for lithium off-grid is for people who want to squeeze their entire rig into a closet or basement corner. And nobody ever talks about what to do with those batteries once they finally die. My packs will be easily recycled.
  - Solar2 5y ago
    See, exactly proves my point. DOD is only 25%. If you do not cycle them much, you can make a lead acid last for years no problem. If you are doing 100% DOD, and do not with to deal with maintenance, and wish to have high coulombic efficiency, lithium is far better. Volumetric density is a side benefit of lithium. We use it for coulombic efficiency, low voltage sag, high cycle life (much higher than lead acid, regardless of cycling bandwidth), usable capacity at low temperatures (much higher than lead acid! People always get this wrong), and higher specific energy. And lead acid sulfation and shorted cells require recycling. You can safely use a lifepo4 pack for years after degradation occurs. Lead acid is easier to recycle, but lithium ion recycling companies are dominating the space now. It is not like it was 3 years ago. Times are changing and there is no way anyone wants to throw out cobalt from a pack. LFP is much easier to recycle than cobalt based chemistries as well.
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      Solar2 == willprowseiv? Brand new account responding as such, at least. Which production lithium ion recycling companies are "dominating the space" and actually recycling more than test quantities of cells? Apparently I've missed that in the past few years - links to them?
hasbot 5y ago
"And, at a given price point, they can charge faster than lithium too." Please elaborate; I have no idea what you're talking about here. My deep-cycle RV batteries are nearly dead and I'm going to spend the $$$ to replace them w/ a lithium battery partially because of lithium's faster charging. At peak solar season, I only get about 3 to 4 hours of good sunlight on my forested property so I need batteries that charge relatively quickly.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Because for the price of one lithium battery you can buy five lead-acids, wire them in parralel, and charge at 5x the rate.
Solar2 5y ago
I lived 10 years off grid in vans and rvs, and now I mine bitcoin and charge my teslas with offgrid solar. I have built systems with every chemistry, even lithium polymer and LTO. And FLA and AGM. I have a lot of experience in this realm. It does not sound like youv'e seen my videos before. Lithium packs are not a nightmare to recycle anymore. There are huge corporations fighting to recycle them now, and the tech has improved a lot. I could not say this two years ago. Lead acid is easier to recycle, but the cycle life of those packs, and sulfation you have to deal with, make them horrible for the environment. Cycling them deeply kills them fast, even the expensive ones. If you do not cycle them deeply, FLA will last for decades, but will cost a lot of money , space etc. And you need to maintain them. Lithium ion chemistries such as LiFePO4 are far superior. I think you need to get your hands on some cells and actually build a pack. Test the coulombic efficiency and usable capacity at various temperatures and you will be blown away. And you will save a ton of money over lead acid. Lead acid is very expensive, and I would make a lot more money if I sold them. I also do not sell anything on that website, it only has affiliate links. I am not on any sponsorship contracts or have loyalty to any company. Most of my review videos are me bashing design errors and various solar companies. I do not think you have seen my videos, going by your comment. It is a little bit cringy, unfortunately.
mattr47 5y ago
Car batteries are good for 4-5 years.
aliswe 5y ago
It would have helped to do a more benevolent analysis/interpretation here. For example, you mentioned yourself that lead batteries need checking, change of fluids, etc, most of which noone does.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Everybody whose house power depends on their batteries will do this religiously. It's a five minute job every month and a half our job every year.
comeonseriously 5y ago
> Look at nearly every 12v car or boat battery. You don't see those being replaced every 3-5 years. Yes, yes you do. All the time.
n3dm 5y ago
Not sure if this is a troll post. Your lead acid comment is sImPlY iNcOrReCt, and you clearly don't know the owner of the website as he is a dude who runs his YouTube channel in a very transparent way.

bkjelden 5y ago

> Look at nearly every 12v car or boat battery. You don't see those being replaced every 3-5 years. It is old reliable tech that just works. I actually do see this all of the time. In decades of owning multiple cars I've found the batteries tend to fail so regularly at about the 5 year mark that you could set a watch to it. They are easy to find and inexpensive to replace, but they absolutely do have a limited lifespan.

varelse 5y ago
I would love to have found that magical car battery that doesn't die after 5 years or so. But the real comedy is that my EV is required to have one of them independent of all the lithium batteries, and if it discharges/fails, it's a whole fan dance to get into the car.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> it's a whole fan dance to get into the car. I've never jumped a full EV, but I have had to jump a couple hybrids after their 12v batteries ran flat. Can you not get to the 12v battery using a mechanical key? Any 12v jumpstart kit should provide enough voltage to activate the solenoid and get everything online.
  - varelse 5y ago
    The mechanical key on my EV, a Mustang Mach E, is a blank. but here's the fan dance to get into the car on a dead battery... https://youtu.be/AKK_Vt1m5TA https://youtu.be/AKK_Vt1m5TA
convolvatron 5y ago
Unsealed lead batteries that go through proper solution maintenance can definitely last decades - I have a forklift that keeps almost 1/2 its original charge and it was made in 1982. but I have flushed and cleaned the cells a few times and keep track of the pH when I top them off.

mlac 5y ago

This is a really good point, but my car batteries last between 3-5 years. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.

sandworm101 5y ago
What actually happened to your car battery to cause you to replace it? Did you do anything to fix it? Did you ever maintain it? Did you replace the fluid? Or did you just drive your car every day and then replaced the battery when the mechanic told you it was broken? It is normally cheaper to replace a standard car battery than attempt to maintain and fix it (100-200$) but in an off-grid situation many thousands of dollars are at stake, which makes maintenance and repair more practical than replacement. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-to-recondition-a-car-battery https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-to-recondit... https://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/learn/recondition-car-battery/ https://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/learn/recondition-car-ba...
- zbrozek 5y ago
  Car batteries these days are sealed, so you don't really have much opportunity to replace their acid. A regularly-driven car isn't deep-cycling its battery, so I'm not sure what else you'd do to maintain it.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    You test it regularly and hook it up to a good desulfator/maintainer when needed. A sealed battery might be acceptable for a car, if the owner has the money to replace it regularly, but not in an off-grid/residential situation.
- mlac 5y ago
  It wasn’t about the mechanic telling me, it was about the car not starting anymore and the battery not taking any charge. And that’s why I asked - I honestly don’t know what steps are recommended to maintain a car battery (or if given the price it is worth the work). Thanks for the links - I’ll look later

passerby1 5y ago

That's interesting. Winters are cold where I'm originally from, and car batteries get replaced more frequently than once in 10 years. Where are you from? Your experience is very different.

sandworm101 5y ago
Northern Alberta. Currently -30c. The 8yo battery in my car started my engine just fine this morning, with the help of my block and battery heaters that ran all night. I think people in the north might have longer battery life because of the harsh conditions. We probably spend more time/money on maintenance of vehicles precisely because we need them to start when very cold. I have noticed a deeper voltage drop when starting my car this winter. The battery might well be on its last legs but so long as it is still working I'll hold off replacing it. (I do carry a jumpstart kit in my trunk, right beside the snow chains.)
quesera 5y ago
GP did not specify, but it's likely that they are referring to deep-cycle lead acid batteries, not standard car batteries. Deep-cycle batteries are commonly used as the house power for RVs, boats, solar storage, etc.

gcp123 5y ago

The OP, Will Prowse knows what he’s talking about. He lives off the grid and meticulously documents all of his testing and research. When I was new to solar to battery power storage, I learned everything I needed to know from his website and videos to build my own off the grid system. Check out his YouTube channel.

zbrozek 5y ago

I can believe that lead-acid batteries in a thermally-regulated and immobile location would have a longevity advantage. But what magic dance are you doing to get car batteries to last longer than 5 years? I - and my parents, and seemingly everyone else I know - absolutely do seem to have to replace them at just about exactly that interval. That's not to say they aren't filling their role in a totally reasonable way, I'm just really curious how you're getting more life out of them than the rest of us.

sandworm101 5y ago
Invest in a good trickle charger/maintainer/desulfurer (100-150$) and use it occasionally, especially if the car is going to sit for more than a week.

willprowseiv 5y ago

Will Prowse here. Are you kidding me? Those lead acids are kept at a high state of charge and not deeply discharged. Sure some expensive FLA can last much longer, but they are garbage. The coulombic efficiency is horrible. The internal resistance is awful. If I sold lead acid batteries, I would make way more money. You have no clue what you are talking about. And yes, when used for solar and deeply discharged, your lucky to get 3-5 years.

sandworm101 5y ago
Tell that to my 12 year-old battery bank powering my family house (solar with diesel backup charge). It is a pack of deep cycle lead-acids that have served me very well. Of course they are watched and maintained regularly, and rarely ever dip below 75%. The only use case I've ever seen for lithium off-grid is for people who want to squeeze their entire rig into a closet or basement corner. And nobody ever talks about what to do with those batteries once they finally die. My packs will be easily recycled.
- Solar2 5y ago
  See, exactly proves my point. DOD is only 25%. If you do not cycle them much, you can make a lead acid last for years no problem. If you are doing 100% DOD, and do not with to deal with maintenance, and wish to have high coulombic efficiency, lithium is far better. Volumetric density is a side benefit of lithium. We use it for coulombic efficiency, low voltage sag, high cycle life (much higher than lead acid, regardless of cycling bandwidth), usable capacity at low temperatures (much higher than lead acid! People always get this wrong), and higher specific energy. And lead acid sulfation and shorted cells require recycling. You can safely use a lifepo4 pack for years after degradation occurs. Lead acid is easier to recycle, but lithium ion recycling companies are dominating the space now. It is not like it was 3 years ago. Times are changing and there is no way anyone wants to throw out cobalt from a pack. LFP is much easier to recycle than cobalt based chemistries as well.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    Solar2 == willprowseiv? Brand new account responding as such, at least. Which production lithium ion recycling companies are "dominating the space" and actually recycling more than test quantities of cells? Apparently I've missed that in the past few years - links to them?

hasbot 5y ago

"And, at a given price point, they can charge faster than lithium too." Please elaborate; I have no idea what you're talking about here. My deep-cycle RV batteries are nearly dead and I'm going to spend the $$$ to replace them w/ a lithium battery partially because of lithium's faster charging. At peak solar season, I only get about 3 to 4 hours of good sunlight on my forested property so I need batteries that charge relatively quickly.

sandworm101 5y ago
Because for the price of one lithium battery you can buy five lead-acids, wire them in parralel, and charge at 5x the rate.

Solar2 5y ago

I lived 10 years off grid in vans and rvs, and now I mine bitcoin and charge my teslas with offgrid solar. I have built systems with every chemistry, even lithium polymer and LTO. And FLA and AGM. I have a lot of experience in this realm. It does not sound like youv'e seen my videos before. Lithium packs are not a nightmare to recycle anymore. There are huge corporations fighting to recycle them now, and the tech has improved a lot. I could not say this two years ago. Lead acid is easier to recycle, but the cycle life of those packs, and sulfation you have to deal with, make them horrible for the environment. Cycling them deeply kills them fast, even the expensive ones. If you do not cycle them deeply, FLA will last for decades, but will cost a lot of money , space etc. And you need to maintain them. Lithium ion chemistries such as LiFePO4 are far superior. I think you need to get your hands on some cells and actually build a pack. Test the coulombic efficiency and usable capacity at various temperatures and you will be blown away. And you will save a ton of money over lead acid. Lead acid is very expensive, and I would make a lot more money if I sold them. I also do not sell anything on that website, it only has affiliate links. I am not on any sponsorship contracts or have loyalty to any company. Most of my review videos are me bashing design errors and various solar companies. I do not think you have seen my videos, going by your comment. It is a little bit cringy, unfortunately.

mattr47 5y ago

Car batteries are good for 4-5 years.

aliswe 5y ago

It would have helped to do a more benevolent analysis/interpretation here. For example, you mentioned yourself that lead batteries need checking, change of fluids, etc, most of which noone does.

jacquesm 5y ago
Everybody whose house power depends on their batteries will do this religiously. It's a five minute job every month and a half our job every year.

comeonseriously 5y ago

> Look at nearly every 12v car or boat battery. You don't see those being replaced every 3-5 years. Yes, yes you do. All the time.

n3dm 5y ago

Not sure if this is a troll post. Your lead acid comment is sImPlY iNcOrReCt, and you clearly don't know the owner of the website as he is a dude who runs his YouTube channel in a very transparent way.