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BMW's and Porsche's PHEVs are pretty good, why other companies cannot follow the same formula (add batteries and electric motor to a regular car without crippli

BMW's and Porsche's PHEVs are pretty good, why other companies cannot follow the same formula (add batteries and electric motor to a regular car without crippling the existing drivetrain) is a mystery. It appears most want you to buy their BEV so they intentionally make PHEVs unappealing.

matthewdgreen 5y ago
We looked at the BMW X5 Hybrid recently and it’s kind of a joke. There’s a large (24kWh) battery pack but it only gets 31 miles of range on a full charge. The charge itself takes eight hours on a 240V circuit because they only installed a 16A charger (the i3 has a 32A charger.) Meanwhile it’s gas mileage is lower than the equivalent ICE version. It does not feel like a serious effort to move a lot of customers onto EV usage, more like a compliance car. No idea about the Porches but I understand those to be at an even less affordable price point.
- pandaman 5y ago
  The message I replied to was about performance, not range. PHEVs do not have 300 miles electric range, even BMW. I have an 45e and have no problems with it: it fully charges in ~7 hours, I drove about 6K miles last year and filled total 5 times (not full tanks, I live in an apartment building with shared chargers that go out of order for weeks so I fill up when charger is broken and I have less than 1/4 tank), it still has 90% of tank filled in the early November.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  I live in a rural area and 31 miles of range is enough to drive into the largest town where everything is, and back again, without the ICE coming on. That's not a "joke."
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    31 miles with a small/light/inexpensive battery and reasonably rapid charging would not be a joke, particularly if you also got some gas-only efficiency benefits. But the X5 has a relatively huge and heavy 24kWh battery pack - nearly 1/3 the size of a Model Y, a car that gets 10x the electric range. The result is a substantial cost increase over the gas-only X5, plus gas mileage that is actually worse. Moreover, the internal charger is so weak that you can’t add any substantial range by charging at your destination unless you occupy a charger all day long (the Model Y charges at up to 42 miles/hr on AC, the BMW will add maybe 4.)
    - pandaman 5y ago
      In the US, at least, 45e MSRP is 3700 more than 40i xdrive and 45e comes standard with air suspension, which is a 2K+ option on 40i (can't look it up now because it's not even available at this time). I would not call a ~2000 a substantial cost increase on a 60K+ vehicle. But there is more - you get 7500 tax credit from the feds and in some states you get the state credit too so it's actually cheaper than even rear-drive sdrive 40i with the fed credit alone.
      - matthewdgreen 5y ago
        In other words, with some luxury features, small sales numbers (easy to take a small margin when you’re selling next to none) and a massive $7500 Federal subsidy it compares with the ICE on affordability. But I would prefer to save those valuable $7500 tax credits for vehicle designs that can actually be built and sold at scale. That’s the problem here: PHEVs are supposed to be a bridge to full EVs, but this thing is an obsolete dinosaur that will barely move the needle on electrification. It’s also fairly obvious that within the extended warranty lifespan of this vehicle, BMW will ditch this design and completely replace it with a platform that is a good EV first, rather than an ICE with some expensive bolt on electrification.
        pandaman 5y ago
        I frankly don't care about the needle of electrification. I responded to your claim that it is substantially more expensive, which had been false in my experience. If BMW will drop this design or the price incentive will change I am not going to be buying a BEV for sure, it's going to be an ICE or hybrid from another brand. Luckily the trend seems to be opposite, the 45e replaced the horrendous 40e and had been a great success so I doubt BMW will be killing this line any time soon.
numpad0 5y ago
Traditional automaker tend to get a bit paternalistic and perhaps communist in American terms - the new Camry your team is going to build and sell is going to carry life and moments of its drivers, and their families, and their neighbors waving hands for next decades, each year adding up in tens of millions as the cars are built and shipped - it’s definitely not going to do 0-60 in under 2 seconds because they can’t get around that for better or worse. Maybe even 5 seconds is too much. Is 7.5s too slow? Debatable. Think about kids! Our future! Tesla is at the other side of spectrum when it comes to it, so they just put what they make because they can. They managed to set the benchmark for BEV so others follow them for BEV products.

matthewdgreen 5y ago

We looked at the BMW X5 Hybrid recently and it’s kind of a joke. There’s a large (24kWh) battery pack but it only gets 31 miles of range on a full charge. The charge itself takes eight hours on a 240V circuit because they only installed a 16A charger (the i3 has a 32A charger.) Meanwhile it’s gas mileage is lower than the equivalent ICE version. It does not feel like a serious effort to move a lot of customers onto EV usage, more like a compliance car. No idea about the Porches but I understand those to be at an even less affordable price point.

pandaman 5y ago
The message I replied to was about performance, not range. PHEVs do not have 300 miles electric range, even BMW. I have an 45e and have no problems with it: it fully charges in ~7 hours, I drove about 6K miles last year and filled total 5 times (not full tanks, I live in an apartment building with shared chargers that go out of order for weeks so I fill up when charger is broken and I have less than 1/4 tank), it still has 90% of tank filled in the early November.
KennyBlanken 5y ago
I live in a rural area and 31 miles of range is enough to drive into the largest town where everything is, and back again, without the ICE coming on. That's not a "joke."
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  31 miles with a small/light/inexpensive battery and reasonably rapid charging would not be a joke, particularly if you also got some gas-only efficiency benefits. But the X5 has a relatively huge and heavy 24kWh battery pack - nearly 1/3 the size of a Model Y, a car that gets 10x the electric range. The result is a substantial cost increase over the gas-only X5, plus gas mileage that is actually worse. Moreover, the internal charger is so weak that you can’t add any substantial range by charging at your destination unless you occupy a charger all day long (the Model Y charges at up to 42 miles/hr on AC, the BMW will add maybe 4.)
  - pandaman 5y ago
    In the US, at least, 45e MSRP is 3700 more than 40i xdrive and 45e comes standard with air suspension, which is a 2K+ option on 40i (can't look it up now because it's not even available at this time). I would not call a ~2000 a substantial cost increase on a 60K+ vehicle. But there is more - you get 7500 tax credit from the feds and in some states you get the state credit too so it's actually cheaper than even rear-drive sdrive 40i with the fed credit alone.
    - matthewdgreen 5y ago
      In other words, with some luxury features, small sales numbers (easy to take a small margin when you’re selling next to none) and a massive $7500 Federal subsidy it compares with the ICE on affordability. But I would prefer to save those valuable $7500 tax credits for vehicle designs that can actually be built and sold at scale. That’s the problem here: PHEVs are supposed to be a bridge to full EVs, but this thing is an obsolete dinosaur that will barely move the needle on electrification. It’s also fairly obvious that within the extended warranty lifespan of this vehicle, BMW will ditch this design and completely replace it with a platform that is a good EV first, rather than an ICE with some expensive bolt on electrification.
      - pandaman 5y ago
        I frankly don't care about the needle of electrification. I responded to your claim that it is substantially more expensive, which had been false in my experience. If BMW will drop this design or the price incentive will change I am not going to be buying a BEV for sure, it's going to be an ICE or hybrid from another brand. Luckily the trend seems to be opposite, the 45e replaced the horrendous 40e and had been a great success so I doubt BMW will be killing this line any time soon.

numpad0 5y ago

Traditional automaker tend to get a bit paternalistic and perhaps communist in American terms - the new Camry your team is going to build and sell is going to carry life and moments of its drivers, and their families, and their neighbors waving hands for next decades, each year adding up in tens of millions as the cars are built and shipped - it’s definitely not going to do 0-60 in under 2 seconds because they can’t get around that for better or worse. Maybe even 5 seconds is too much. Is 7.5s too slow? Debatable. Think about kids! Our future! Tesla is at the other side of spectrum when it comes to it, so they just put what they make because they can. They managed to set the benchmark for BEV so others follow them for BEV products.