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This kind of strategy ignores second order effects. For example, by buying a gas guzzler and not using it much you might lower the emissions from that specific

This kind of strategy ignores second order effects. For example, by buying a gas guzzler and not using it much you might lower the emissions from that specific vehicle. But supply and demand rears its ugly head: you're contributing to the increase of similar gas guzzlers' value in the market, which means that other people are more likely to maintain those vehicles in working order and resell them, instead of scrapping them or leaving them unused.

sokoloff 5y ago
We drive our cars about 2K miles and 5K miles a year. I’ve argued (so far without success) that it makes no sense for us to buy a used hybrid or other high-efficiency car [and divert that car from a user who would likely drive it 10K+ miles per year]. We’ve got a couple more years before I have to buy another used car, so I still might win the argument.
tshaddox 5y ago
Surely by that same argument scrapping or abandoning any automobile instead of reselling it is going to increase the value of new cars relative to used cars, which might be a net negative for the environment even if the newly manufactured car is a zero emission vehicle.
olivermarks 5y ago
We need to get used to using the term 'power consumer' instead of emotive terms like 'gas guzzler' to describe IC engines. Currently coal powered BEVs are considered by some to have superior efficiencies to gasoline powered vehicles.
- DenseComet 5y ago
  I would expect that to be true. Not the best numbers, but Wikipedia puts coal power plants at 37% efficiency and combustion engines at 20-35%. This makes sense too, power plants have space, money, and an incentive to increase efficiency. And in reality, no power mix is 100% coal, increasing the overall efficiency to above 37%.
  - olivermarks 5y ago
    Electricity doesn't transport well over wire. iI don't think mass market BEVs are viable until battery technology significantly improves and small modular nuclear reactors can provide local clean power. https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Rolls-Royce-submits-SMR-design-for-UK-assessment https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Rolls-Royce-subm...
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Does petrol just appear at the station ready for use? Less than half of crude oil makes it into your car. It travels thousands of miles from the well to refinery, where a chunk of it is burnt to power fractional distillation and separate out Sulphur, impurities, bitumen, kerosene and other stuff that would ruin your car. It's burnt to power catalytic cracking, to convert heavier compounds into something combustion engines can burn. Obviously t is consumed in engines of trucks and ships to deliver it to a petrol station.
betwixthewires 5y ago
Look at the other side of this: by buying an EV, you're increasing the demand and increasing the cost barrier to owning one, so people are more likely to buy a cheaper, gas car. An EV you're not going to use much that sits in your garage is one less on the market to drive the supply up. Generally, the idea that people toss their cars in the garbage is wrong. They enter the secondary market and someone drives them either way. Scrapping them only happens when their useful lifespan is over. Buying a newly made gas guzzler is a different story.
Sporktacular 5y ago
Exactly, it induces demand. Same went for efforts to reintroduce ivory in a more ethically sourced way back onto the market. Demand exploded and kick started poaching again. There are other examples too. As for buying coalmines, typically mining rights are sold to miners as licenses that owners expect to get a percentage from. When the buyer turns out to be an environmental NGO the license gets revoked pretty quickly. This happened in the US earlier this year. These strategies will often run into implementation complexities.
shusaku 5y ago
> This kind of strategy ignores second order effects. I think half the examples listed are used to teach people about second order effects. Yet the writer of the article seems to have taken them at face value…
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sokoloff 5y ago

We drive our cars about 2K miles and 5K miles a year. I’ve argued (so far without success) that it makes no sense for us to buy a used hybrid or other high-efficiency car [and divert that car from a user who would likely drive it 10K+ miles per year]. We’ve got a couple more years before I have to buy another used car, so I still might win the argument.

tshaddox 5y ago

Surely by that same argument scrapping or abandoning any automobile instead of reselling it is going to increase the value of new cars relative to used cars, which might be a net negative for the environment even if the newly manufactured car is a zero emission vehicle.

olivermarks 5y ago

We need to get used to using the term 'power consumer' instead of emotive terms like 'gas guzzler' to describe IC engines. Currently coal powered BEVs are considered by some to have superior efficiencies to gasoline powered vehicles.

DenseComet 5y ago
I would expect that to be true. Not the best numbers, but Wikipedia puts coal power plants at 37% efficiency and combustion engines at 20-35%. This makes sense too, power plants have space, money, and an incentive to increase efficiency. And in reality, no power mix is 100% coal, increasing the overall efficiency to above 37%.
- olivermarks 5y ago
  Electricity doesn't transport well over wire. iI don't think mass market BEVs are viable until battery technology significantly improves and small modular nuclear reactors can provide local clean power. https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Rolls-Royce-submits-SMR-design-for-UK-assessment https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Rolls-Royce-subm...
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Does petrol just appear at the station ready for use? Less than half of crude oil makes it into your car. It travels thousands of miles from the well to refinery, where a chunk of it is burnt to power fractional distillation and separate out Sulphur, impurities, bitumen, kerosene and other stuff that would ruin your car. It's burnt to power catalytic cracking, to convert heavier compounds into something combustion engines can burn. Obviously t is consumed in engines of trucks and ships to deliver it to a petrol station.

betwixthewires 5y ago

Look at the other side of this: by buying an EV, you're increasing the demand and increasing the cost barrier to owning one, so people are more likely to buy a cheaper, gas car. An EV you're not going to use much that sits in your garage is one less on the market to drive the supply up. Generally, the idea that people toss their cars in the garbage is wrong. They enter the secondary market and someone drives them either way. Scrapping them only happens when their useful lifespan is over. Buying a newly made gas guzzler is a different story.

Sporktacular 5y ago

Exactly, it induces demand. Same went for efforts to reintroduce ivory in a more ethically sourced way back onto the market. Demand exploded and kick started poaching again. There are other examples too. As for buying coalmines, typically mining rights are sold to miners as licenses that owners expect to get a percentage from. When the buyer turns out to be an environmental NGO the license gets revoked pretty quickly. This happened in the US earlier this year. These strategies will often run into implementation complexities.

shusaku 5y ago

> This kind of strategy ignores second order effects. I think half the examples listed are used to teach people about second order effects. Yet the writer of the article seems to have taken them at face value…

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]