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It is not a personal attack. It is an attack on the argument. Anytime somebody says something negative about the CCP people always bring up the west. It is not

It is not a personal attack. It is an attack on the argument. Anytime somebody says something negative about the CCP people always bring up the west. It is not relevant to the conversation and is a common tactic of anti west / pro CCP people to deflect.

ashwagary 5y ago
I'm not sure it's always whataboutism, it's many times just comparison. People in the west don't tend to have an objective view of who they are and how their bevaior is seen by other people on this planet. Some of the western criticism of emerging powers is hilarious/ironic/rife with hypocrisy when viewed through a non-western lens.
oblak 5y ago
Whataboutism is very relevant. If A is accusing B of eating babies, then why shouldn't B - or anyone, for that matter - not point out that A is also eating babies and raping old ladies? What you call "pro CCP people" is just people outside the sphere of influence of A. In your environment it's been normalized to hate on China for any reason. You're likely being brainwashed 24/7 or a paid troll.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Whataboutism has nothing to do with morality. If country A does something bad it doesn't mean that it is not actually bad because country B did something similar. Do you find it interesting that anytime there is a thread about the US doing something bad that nobody jumps in and say well China did the same thing? It only goes one way. That is why I am calling it out. The reason why it goes one way is because people who support the west know their side has done bad things. People who support China refuse to accept it. You cannot accept any criticism of the CCP and somehow I am brainwashed? I understand the US and other western countries have done and continue to do bad things. I just don't bring it up when it is not related to the topic at hand.
  - oblak 5y ago
    You make some good points but I am not completely convinced you're arguing in good faith. Do you have any cases of "pro CCP" content reaching the front page here? Because the opposite happens multiple times a day. Context matters. Pointing out blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with supporting whatever the current boogie man is.
    - _-david-_ 5y ago
      I am not saying pro-CCP content is reaching the front page. All I am saying is pro China / anti-west comments are common in threads about China. In this very thread there are many comments basically saying the US and the rest of the western countries are no different than the CCP. This thread has nothing to do with the west other than Valve being a western company. I wouldn't mind a conversation about the companies in the west doing business in China or western countries restricting Chinese companies, but that is often times not what we are seeing. Most of the posters on HN live in the west and likely consider the government of the country they live in to be better (morally) to the government of China. Seeing posts that are pro-western is to be expected for that reason. Like I said above, I am not saying there is a problem with pro CCP posts making the front page. If China does something good, I would have no issues with an article about it making the front page. I would also note that posts that are critical of the west (especially US) do make it to the front page. In those posts at worst we see an acceptance that it happened and maybe some arguments that we should do more to try to fix the wrongs done. When we have a China post we see deflection and sometimes denial of human rights violations. When there was a post about the Uyghurs there were multiple commenters saying we can't trust the western intelligence agencies and news organizations. When is the last time you saw comments like that when it was against a western country?
  - everforward 5y ago
    People also don't generally comment on the amount of pro-US or pro-Europe comments in those threads. I don't think I've ever seen any accusations of Western astroturfing. Influencing the media, sure, but not being directly in the comments. Also, the US is trying to maintain a moral high ground (real or perceived). They don't want to be associated with China. I don't think anyone would say "well China does it too!" but they would absolutely say "well the EU does it too!". I do think China gets dinged for their misdeeds more than other nations do. I don't see nearly the anti-India sentiment, despite the similarities. India is perceived as a country that makes some missteps on their way to modernization, while China is perceived as a country that's rotten to the core and making intentionally terrible choices. I don't support China. I wouldn't want to live there. I just think that we're either mentally over-prosecuting China, or that we're giving more democratic nations a pass on their misdeeds. India still has castes, and didn't they just have a series of internet blackouts to suppress dissidents? The whole thing with the farmers, though I could be misremembering. They're democratic though, so we're all pretty sure they'll find their way. No one seems to consider that perhaps China will find their way as well. Germany had Hitler 80 years ago and they're doing fine today. Perhaps in 80 years China will be more free as well.

ashwagary 5y ago

I'm not sure it's always whataboutism, it's many times just comparison. People in the west don't tend to have an objective view of who they are and how their bevaior is seen by other people on this planet. Some of the western criticism of emerging powers is hilarious/ironic/rife with hypocrisy when viewed through a non-western lens.

oblak 5y ago

Whataboutism is very relevant. If A is accusing B of eating babies, then why shouldn't B - or anyone, for that matter - not point out that A is also eating babies and raping old ladies? What you call "pro CCP people" is just people outside the sphere of influence of A. In your environment it's been normalized to hate on China for any reason. You're likely being brainwashed 24/7 or a paid troll.

_-david-_ 5y ago
Whataboutism has nothing to do with morality. If country A does something bad it doesn't mean that it is not actually bad because country B did something similar. Do you find it interesting that anytime there is a thread about the US doing something bad that nobody jumps in and say well China did the same thing? It only goes one way. That is why I am calling it out. The reason why it goes one way is because people who support the west know their side has done bad things. People who support China refuse to accept it. You cannot accept any criticism of the CCP and somehow I am brainwashed? I understand the US and other western countries have done and continue to do bad things. I just don't bring it up when it is not related to the topic at hand.
- oblak 5y ago
  You make some good points but I am not completely convinced you're arguing in good faith. Do you have any cases of "pro CCP" content reaching the front page here? Because the opposite happens multiple times a day. Context matters. Pointing out blatant hypocrisy has nothing to do with supporting whatever the current boogie man is.
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    I am not saying pro-CCP content is reaching the front page. All I am saying is pro China / anti-west comments are common in threads about China. In this very thread there are many comments basically saying the US and the rest of the western countries are no different than the CCP. This thread has nothing to do with the west other than Valve being a western company. I wouldn't mind a conversation about the companies in the west doing business in China or western countries restricting Chinese companies, but that is often times not what we are seeing. Most of the posters on HN live in the west and likely consider the government of the country they live in to be better (morally) to the government of China. Seeing posts that are pro-western is to be expected for that reason. Like I said above, I am not saying there is a problem with pro CCP posts making the front page. If China does something good, I would have no issues with an article about it making the front page. I would also note that posts that are critical of the west (especially US) do make it to the front page. In those posts at worst we see an acceptance that it happened and maybe some arguments that we should do more to try to fix the wrongs done. When we have a China post we see deflection and sometimes denial of human rights violations. When there was a post about the Uyghurs there were multiple commenters saying we can't trust the western intelligence agencies and news organizations. When is the last time you saw comments like that when it was against a western country?
- everforward 5y ago
  People also don't generally comment on the amount of pro-US or pro-Europe comments in those threads. I don't think I've ever seen any accusations of Western astroturfing. Influencing the media, sure, but not being directly in the comments. Also, the US is trying to maintain a moral high ground (real or perceived). They don't want to be associated with China. I don't think anyone would say "well China does it too!" but they would absolutely say "well the EU does it too!". I do think China gets dinged for their misdeeds more than other nations do. I don't see nearly the anti-India sentiment, despite the similarities. India is perceived as a country that makes some missteps on their way to modernization, while China is perceived as a country that's rotten to the core and making intentionally terrible choices. I don't support China. I wouldn't want to live there. I just think that we're either mentally over-prosecuting China, or that we're giving more democratic nations a pass on their misdeeds. India still has castes, and didn't they just have a series of internet blackouts to suppress dissidents? The whole thing with the farmers, though I could be misremembering. They're democratic though, so we're all pretty sure they'll find their way. No one seems to consider that perhaps China will find their way as well. Germany had Hitler 80 years ago and they're doing fine today. Perhaps in 80 years China will be more free as well.