3 ms·

As a European living in UK that's the saddest thing, that feeling of 52% of the British people saying "we don't like you coming here for our jobs" but then you

As a European living in UK that's the saddest thing, that feeling of 52% of the British people saying "we don't like you coming here for our jobs" but then you have people that have voted for Brexit to, and I quote, "keep the pakis out", so I bet the Brexit vote was less about not liking foreigners but just putting all your anger at the system into the Brexit vote, resulting in shooting yourself in the foot big time.

jacquesm 5y ago
It's the same kind of frustration that drove the Maga movement in the United States, a wish to go back to days past and some convenient scapegoats. But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. But it sucks for all those people that worked so hard to lift the UK out of the mess they were in in the 80's, going down is usually a lot faster than going up.
- coolso 5y ago
  > But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. When you look at it in that context you may be correct, but I think that’s also strawmanning to a degree. It was common to hear people attack the movement as being just a bunch of people who wanted things “exactly like the 50s” but that’s not really true. Furthermore when you look at the data, under Trump illegal immigration was at an all time low, and Americans’ personal satisfaction with their lives were at an all time high [0], among other metrics that showed that despite constant negative media portrayals, the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better. [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satis...
  - CalChris 5y ago
    Illegal immigration had been falling since 2007. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-abo...
    - coolso 5y ago
      OK, yet they went lower-yet under Trump, including by other metrics (border apprehensions), and now under the opposite non-MAGA policies, they are at their highest levels in decades. Democrats used to take a harder stance on immigration until Trump came around, in fact Schumer et. al. had videos passionately stumping for more money for border walls and fencing in the 00's.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better This is not a position that has a lot - if any - of support. The MAGA policies (tradewars, build the wall and so on) as far as I can see materially degraded the lives of Americans. It was for the most part bluff and bluster and if anything it caused the outflow of people that had illegally immigrated to the United States to halt because those that were in the process of doing so perceived that even if it didn't improve things in the United States it would almost certainly make things worse in the countries that those immigrants were originally from. The way to stop immigration is to raise the standard of life in the countries that people come from, not to build walls and to enact all kinds of idiotic measures to make it harder for other countries to import their goods. That just works towards the opposite. But Maga and logic never went hand in hand anyway.
drumhead 5y ago
No it really was about immigration. A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service. I knew a lot of people at all different levels of British society that voted to leave because of this, form all races and economic classes. I voted to leave because I found the EU undemocratic, inflexible and overegulated, I also didnt like the strong strain of xenophobia and racism present in continental European politics that could infect the UK through EU legislation. But I also knew that was the reason Leave won the vote in the UK.
- 1_player 5y ago
  > like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service That's the most ignorant of excuses. Do these people think we come to UK to get benefits and because we're weak and sick? People immigrate when they're young and healthy and of working age. They don't crowd the health service and are net positive taxpayers and contributors to the economy. But of course the average "immigrants are stealing our jobs" voter isn't capable of deep concepts like this. Sorry, but as a son of immigrants and an immigrant myself I have no patience for ignorance and small-mindedness. Now we've left the EU, BoJo offered temporary visas to drive lorries during the fuel crisis this summer and there's no one to pick the potatoes and parsnips out of the British fields. Where the queue of Brits to replace the Eastern European immigrant farmers that have gotten the boot thanks to Brexit?
  - drumhead 5y ago
    We all know why no one's doing those jobs, its because they were low paid. Shouldnt farmers have been paying more or was low paid labour from Eastern Europe a good thing?
- mmarq 5y ago
  > A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service The English school system is an undefinable classist mess, where you either spend a fortune in housing or in school fees or you surrender to your child being practically illiterate. The NHS is a burning barrel of crap, compared to its continental homologues. They are sources of complaints among expats and of morbid curiosity for those living in the continent (I went to the GP with a broken arm, and all they gave me was paracetamol, do you know an Italian doctor in the UK? - random Italian on the NHS). Nobody moves to the UK for its public services and nobody swamps anything. Anybody suggesting that Germans or Frenchmen or Spaniards are flooding the UK (read London zone 1 to 3, for the rest is closer to Ukraine than to Germany) is either ignorant or racist or a combination of the two.

jacquesm 5y ago

It's the same kind of frustration that drove the Maga movement in the United States, a wish to go back to days past and some convenient scapegoats. But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. But it sucks for all those people that worked so hard to lift the UK out of the mess they were in in the 80's, going down is usually a lot faster than going up.

coolso 5y ago
> But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. When you look at it in that context you may be correct, but I think that’s also strawmanning to a degree. It was common to hear people attack the movement as being just a bunch of people who wanted things “exactly like the 50s” but that’s not really true. Furthermore when you look at the data, under Trump illegal immigration was at an all time low, and Americans’ personal satisfaction with their lives were at an all time high [0], among other metrics that showed that despite constant negative media portrayals, the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better. [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satis...
- CalChris 5y ago
  Illegal immigration had been falling since 2007. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-abo...
  - coolso 5y ago
    OK, yet they went lower-yet under Trump, including by other metrics (border apprehensions), and now under the opposite non-MAGA policies, they are at their highest levels in decades. Democrats used to take a harder stance on immigration until Trump came around, in fact Schumer et. al. had videos passionately stumping for more money for border walls and fencing in the 00's.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better This is not a position that has a lot - if any - of support. The MAGA policies (tradewars, build the wall and so on) as far as I can see materially degraded the lives of Americans. It was for the most part bluff and bluster and if anything it caused the outflow of people that had illegally immigrated to the United States to halt because those that were in the process of doing so perceived that even if it didn't improve things in the United States it would almost certainly make things worse in the countries that those immigrants were originally from. The way to stop immigration is to raise the standard of life in the countries that people come from, not to build walls and to enact all kinds of idiotic measures to make it harder for other countries to import their goods. That just works towards the opposite. But Maga and logic never went hand in hand anyway.

drumhead 5y ago

No it really was about immigration. A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service. I knew a lot of people at all different levels of British society that voted to leave because of this, form all races and economic classes. I voted to leave because I found the EU undemocratic, inflexible and overegulated, I also didnt like the strong strain of xenophobia and racism present in continental European politics that could infect the UK through EU legislation. But I also knew that was the reason Leave won the vote in the UK.

1_player 5y ago
> like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service That's the most ignorant of excuses. Do these people think we come to UK to get benefits and because we're weak and sick? People immigrate when they're young and healthy and of working age. They don't crowd the health service and are net positive taxpayers and contributors to the economy. But of course the average "immigrants are stealing our jobs" voter isn't capable of deep concepts like this. Sorry, but as a son of immigrants and an immigrant myself I have no patience for ignorance and small-mindedness. Now we've left the EU, BoJo offered temporary visas to drive lorries during the fuel crisis this summer and there's no one to pick the potatoes and parsnips out of the British fields. Where the queue of Brits to replace the Eastern European immigrant farmers that have gotten the boot thanks to Brexit?
- drumhead 5y ago
  We all know why no one's doing those jobs, its because they were low paid. Shouldnt farmers have been paying more or was low paid labour from Eastern Europe a good thing?
mmarq 5y ago
> A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service The English school system is an undefinable classist mess, where you either spend a fortune in housing or in school fees or you surrender to your child being practically illiterate. The NHS is a burning barrel of crap, compared to its continental homologues. They are sources of complaints among expats and of morbid curiosity for those living in the continent (I went to the GP with a broken arm, and all they gave me was paracetamol, do you know an Italian doctor in the UK? - random Italian on the NHS). Nobody moves to the UK for its public services and nobody swamps anything. Anybody suggesting that Germans or Frenchmen or Spaniards are flooding the UK (read London zone 1 to 3, for the rest is closer to Ukraine than to Germany) is either ignorant or racist or a combination of the two.