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Brexit was really all about EU migration. The economic & democratic argument was really just a pretext. I believe everyone knew this perhaps with few exceptions

Brexit was really all about EU migration. The economic & democratic argument was really just a pretext. I believe everyone knew this perhaps with few exceptions. Britons felt that citizens from poor EU countries shouldn't have equal rights.

jacquesm 5y ago
> Britons felt that citizens from poor EU countries shouldn't have equal rights. Let's see how that line holds up a while from now. The UK had substantial benefits from being in the EU, without those the wealth disparity could become significant in a very short time.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Fyi, that's not really true. Areas with actual immigrants were the least likely to vote out. Areas with basically no immigration on the other hand voted out. https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138 https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low... All the "reasons" people claimed were red herrings.
- 1_player 5y ago
  I don't know. In my experience the people hating foreigners are those that live as far away from immigrants as possible. If you live in the big city and see that Europeans, Chinese and Arabs eat, shit and look exactly like you, you'll tend to moderate any tribalistic views. The vast majority of EU haters has never crossed the Channel nor met any European in their whole life. That's how racism work.
  - coolso 5y ago
    There’s also the “misery loves company” aspect that I think drives a lot of city dwellers. Furthermore it’s not just the non-immigrants who can vote in cities. The immigrants will tend to vote for the more liberal policies. So of course high-immigration areas will have more pro-immigration voting. Finally there’s the factor that, if your city is already inundated with immigrants, then it’s not like they’re going to be going anywhere even if anti immigration policies are put in place, so even if people were against them, they may just be resigned to the fact that they’re there to stay. There’s nothing to protect against, they’re already there. Those living outside of big cities see all the crime and problems that go along with living in a city and want nothing to do with it. You can call this behavior any name you want, but I think it just comes down to wanting to live a nice peaceful life with your family and not having to deal with all that city BS.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  In the States, areas with few immigrants are much more anti immigrantion than those with lots. I suspect it's the same in Britain.
- thechao 5y ago
  I see this in Texas: most of the Texans I know (not recent imports) are "meh" about immigration; and, illegal immigration? Eyeroll! My relatives in the Midwest where there's hardly any immigrants? - they're the ones complaining of an immigration apocalypse. Scapegoats are only easy when you don't have to look them in the eyes. I worked with enough ... poorly documented ... guys in the 1990s. They all made good with the Feds: made enough to lawyer up, strike a deal, pay some fines, sometimes go back 'home' for a few years, then go Green Card & become citizens.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    Anecdotal but... I've heard so many pensioners complain about Polish people taking their jobs. But they're pensioners and haven't worked in years. Meanwhile people I know in construction where a lot of migrants actually work don't care. I think this whole thing was fueled by a sort of boredom mixed with fear of changes that have already happened. In all my discussions with brexiteers they claim it's about X but when you ask or point out the lack of logic suddenly it's about Y. Then Z. It's like how you can't really explain why your favourite colour is your favourite colour. Only with massive consequences for other people. I think the truth is people did it for no actual reason and then attached reasons to make it sound less crazy after the fact.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The alternative would be to admit that they were wrong. But that's not going to happen.
    - 123pie123 5y ago
      I had a wierd conversation that backs this up, talking to a 70 to 80yo guy, he seemed extremely fit and mental young, but as we got talking about the brexit vote he suddenly got angry/ passionate!! about how the polish are coming in and talking all the jobs, he went on and on for what seemed like ages (about 2 to 3 minutes) I asked him in a calm but intrigued way to explain more, has he lost his job or has is family been affected? He suddenly changed his demeanor from angry to very calm and passive then said there's been no immigrants to his village and he's retired, but that they might come though - I thought wtf I asked him does he read the daily express? he shrugged like, whats that got to do with anything and he said yes, the conversation moved on
- tpush 5y ago
  That's actually not a contradiction but a well-known phenomenon. In any given country, the area with the least immigration is often times the most vocally xenophobic.
1_player 5y ago
As a European living in UK that's the saddest thing, that feeling of 52% of the British people saying "we don't like you coming here for our jobs" but then you have people that have voted for Brexit to, and I quote, "keep the pakis out", so I bet the Brexit vote was less about not liking foreigners but just putting all your anger at the system into the Brexit vote, resulting in shooting yourself in the foot big time.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  It's the same kind of frustration that drove the Maga movement in the United States, a wish to go back to days past and some convenient scapegoats. But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. But it sucks for all those people that worked so hard to lift the UK out of the mess they were in in the 80's, going down is usually a lot faster than going up.
  - coolso 5y ago
    > But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. When you look at it in that context you may be correct, but I think that’s also strawmanning to a degree. It was common to hear people attack the movement as being just a bunch of people who wanted things “exactly like the 50s” but that’s not really true. Furthermore when you look at the data, under Trump illegal immigration was at an all time low, and Americans’ personal satisfaction with their lives were at an all time high [0], among other metrics that showed that despite constant negative media portrayals, the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better. [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satis...
    - CalChris 5y ago
      Illegal immigration had been falling since 2007. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-abo...

jacquesm 5y ago

> Britons felt that citizens from poor EU countries shouldn't have equal rights. Let's see how that line holds up a while from now. The UK had substantial benefits from being in the EU, without those the wealth disparity could become significant in a very short time.

LatteLazy 5y ago

Fyi, that's not really true. Areas with actual immigrants were the least likely to vote out. Areas with basically no immigration on the other hand voted out. https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138 https://theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low... All the "reasons" people claimed were red herrings.

1_player 5y ago
I don't know. In my experience the people hating foreigners are those that live as far away from immigrants as possible. If you live in the big city and see that Europeans, Chinese and Arabs eat, shit and look exactly like you, you'll tend to moderate any tribalistic views. The vast majority of EU haters has never crossed the Channel nor met any European in their whole life. That's how racism work.
- coolso 5y ago
  There’s also the “misery loves company” aspect that I think drives a lot of city dwellers. Furthermore it’s not just the non-immigrants who can vote in cities. The immigrants will tend to vote for the more liberal policies. So of course high-immigration areas will have more pro-immigration voting. Finally there’s the factor that, if your city is already inundated with immigrants, then it’s not like they’re going to be going anywhere even if anti immigration policies are put in place, so even if people were against them, they may just be resigned to the fact that they’re there to stay. There’s nothing to protect against, they’re already there. Those living outside of big cities see all the crime and problems that go along with living in a city and want nothing to do with it. You can call this behavior any name you want, but I think it just comes down to wanting to live a nice peaceful life with your family and not having to deal with all that city BS.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
In the States, areas with few immigrants are much more anti immigrantion than those with lots. I suspect it's the same in Britain.
thechao 5y ago
I see this in Texas: most of the Texans I know (not recent imports) are "meh" about immigration; and, illegal immigration? Eyeroll! My relatives in the Midwest where there's hardly any immigrants? - they're the ones complaining of an immigration apocalypse. Scapegoats are only easy when you don't have to look them in the eyes. I worked with enough ... poorly documented ... guys in the 1990s. They all made good with the Feds: made enough to lawyer up, strike a deal, pay some fines, sometimes go back 'home' for a few years, then go Green Card & become citizens.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Anecdotal but... I've heard so many pensioners complain about Polish people taking their jobs. But they're pensioners and haven't worked in years. Meanwhile people I know in construction where a lot of migrants actually work don't care. I think this whole thing was fueled by a sort of boredom mixed with fear of changes that have already happened. In all my discussions with brexiteers they claim it's about X but when you ask or point out the lack of logic suddenly it's about Y. Then Z. It's like how you can't really explain why your favourite colour is your favourite colour. Only with massive consequences for other people. I think the truth is people did it for no actual reason and then attached reasons to make it sound less crazy after the fact.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    The alternative would be to admit that they were wrong. But that's not going to happen.
  - 123pie123 5y ago
    I had a wierd conversation that backs this up, talking to a 70 to 80yo guy, he seemed extremely fit and mental young, but as we got talking about the brexit vote he suddenly got angry/ passionate!! about how the polish are coming in and talking all the jobs, he went on and on for what seemed like ages (about 2 to 3 minutes) I asked him in a calm but intrigued way to explain more, has he lost his job or has is family been affected? He suddenly changed his demeanor from angry to very calm and passive then said there's been no immigrants to his village and he's retired, but that they might come though - I thought wtf I asked him does he read the daily express? he shrugged like, whats that got to do with anything and he said yes, the conversation moved on
tpush 5y ago
That's actually not a contradiction but a well-known phenomenon. In any given country, the area with the least immigration is often times the most vocally xenophobic.

1_player 5y ago

As a European living in UK that's the saddest thing, that feeling of 52% of the British people saying "we don't like you coming here for our jobs" but then you have people that have voted for Brexit to, and I quote, "keep the pakis out", so I bet the Brexit vote was less about not liking foreigners but just putting all your anger at the system into the Brexit vote, resulting in shooting yourself in the foot big time.

jacquesm 5y ago
It's the same kind of frustration that drove the Maga movement in the United States, a wish to go back to days past and some convenient scapegoats. But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. But it sucks for all those people that worked so hard to lift the UK out of the mess they were in in the 80's, going down is usually a lot faster than going up.
- coolso 5y ago
  > But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts. When you look at it in that context you may be correct, but I think that’s also strawmanning to a degree. It was common to hear people attack the movement as being just a bunch of people who wanted things “exactly like the 50s” but that’s not really true. Furthermore when you look at the data, under Trump illegal immigration was at an all time low, and Americans’ personal satisfaction with their lives were at an all time high [0], among other metrics that showed that despite constant negative media portrayals, the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better. [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satisfied-personal-life.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/284285/new-high-americans-satis...
  - CalChris 5y ago
    Illegal immigration had been falling since 2007. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/5-facts-abo...