8 ms·

I am European and not affiliated in any way with China. And don't want to whitewash them. Still, there is a double standard regarding China vs the Western Worl

by stared 5y ago

I am European and not affiliated in any way with China. And don't want to whitewash them. Still, there is a double standard regarding China vs the Western World. While China gets (IMHO deserved) criticism for their territorial claims and human right abuse, the Iraq War (over 400k deaths) was "business as usual". The same goes with anti-pandemic restrictions - when it happens in China, it's an authoritarian rule. When in the West - it's social responsibility. When China started vaccinating children, I saw an article with "child soldiers" and a photo of a crying kid. The same action in the West had a picture of a smiling kid, and a more welcoming title. Or even when it comes to pollution and worker's rights, the West is hypocritical. Blames China, while happily outsources most heavy industry there, due to lower costs. (When was the last time you bought some electronics and there were not "Manufactured in PRL"?)

emptysongglass 5y ago
We're not discussing the US, we're discussing the latest abuse of power by the CCP. That's where the link goes. Would you like to next make a false equivalence of US prison labor to slave labor in China? Because that's where this goes, every thread. Submit a link of the US' latest atrocity to HN. A world of tolerance allows and accepts the stories of violence perpetrated by all actors. The reason you are seeing so many related to China is we have some new flagrant human rights abuse happening from the CCP every week, sometimes multiple times a week, that's why you see so many of these stories percolate to the top. Just two days ago, the CCP tore down the statue commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre in Hong Kong. [1] This is the screaming of the machine doing its work of control, every day of every week. The memories of them will be inhaled whole and exhaled as dust, a phantom of a thing that never truly existed. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029
- atomicity 5y ago
  The commenter you replied to seemed to be comparing 2 situations. That seems normal to me. Comparing things seems to be great way to understand complex issues. What makes the comment a wrong way to discuss? Is it a bad form of comparison for some reason?
  - ganzuul 5y ago
    Providing common knowledge on the topic rehashes things everybody knows so it is seen as noise and not signal. If you have uncovered stuff few people know, please share. Then finding comparisons is more insightful.
sgjohnson 5y ago
Not really. The Iraq war was horrible and unnecessary and I doubt you’ll find too many people here who’ll say otherwise. But it was the past and it’s settled. China is happening now.
- freeflight 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - Grakel 5y ago
    Radical islamic terrorism was going on way before 2001.
    - freeflight 5y ago
      I didn't write radical Islamic terrorism didn't exist before 2001, I wrote it emerged at never before seen scales. And I have plenty of data to back that statement. In Western Europe Islamic terrorism was pretty much a non-issue [0]. It only started becoming an issue after 2003, after the invasion of Iraq, when AQ conducted attacks on Madrid and London, respectively Spain and UK, both countries being part of the coalition of the "willing" that invaded Iraq. That was very much a direct response, one that previously wouldn't have been possible as AQ lacked the resources and people in Western Europe to conduct these kinds of operations. They got these resources and people when the US declared them "enemy #1" and started bombing and invading Muslim countries, displacing Muslims as refugees deep into Western Europe [1], many of them holding resentments over what happened to them and their countries as their worst fears about what an "American crusade" [2] would actually entail in reality. Over time AQ Iraq, which under Saddam wasn't even a thing, would ultimately turn into ISIS, an ISIS that parades its prisoners around in very similar uniforms [3] to those the US paraded them around, which is not a coincidence, it's a direct reference [4]. Even when you look at the global picture, this "war on terrorism" did the same as the "war on drugs" had; It didn't end terrorism, it made it thrive [5]. Anybody who looks at that and declares it "settled" does not understand the kind of impact this had on literally the whole world. [0] https://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015 https://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-p... [1] https://earthtime.org/stories/global_refugee_crisis_the_big_picture https://earthtime.org/stories/global_refugee_crisis_the_big_... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html [3] https://twitter.com/syricide/status/505043264907804672 https://twitter.com/syricide/status/505043264907804672 [4] https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-isis-leader-was-held-in-notorious-abu-ghraib-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-is... [5] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fatalities-from-terrorism?tab=chart&time=earliest..2017&country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fatalities-from-terrorism...
alkonaut 5y ago
That’s whataboutism. Most liberal democracies didn’t invade anyone recently and have free press and a history of little recent human rights abuse. It’s possible to criticize China on its own merits without somehow excusing anyone else. I’d happily pay more for goods from manufacturers saying they avoid China. Hopefully this will be easier and cheaper in coming years.

by stared 5y ago

emptysongglass 5y ago

We're not discussing the US, we're discussing the latest abuse of power by the CCP. That's where the link goes. Would you like to next make a false equivalence of US prison labor to slave labor in China? Because that's where this goes, every thread. Submit a link of the US' latest atrocity to HN. A world of tolerance allows and accepts the stories of violence perpetrated by all actors. The reason you are seeing so many related to China is we have some new flagrant human rights abuse happening from the CCP every week, sometimes multiple times a week, that's why you see so many of these stories percolate to the top. Just two days ago, the CCP tore down the statue commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre in Hong Kong. [1] This is the screaming of the machine doing its work of control, every day of every week. The memories of them will be inhaled whole and exhaled as dust, a phantom of a thing that never truly existed. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59764029

atomicity 5y ago
The commenter you replied to seemed to be comparing 2 situations. That seems normal to me. Comparing things seems to be great way to understand complex issues. What makes the comment a wrong way to discuss? Is it a bad form of comparison for some reason?
- ganzuul 5y ago
  Providing common knowledge on the topic rehashes things everybody knows so it is seen as noise and not signal. If you have uncovered stuff few people know, please share. Then finding comparisons is more insightful.

sgjohnson 5y ago

Not really. The Iraq war was horrible and unnecessary and I doubt you’ll find too many people here who’ll say otherwise. But it was the past and it’s settled. China is happening now.

freeflight 5y ago
[flagged]
- Grakel 5y ago
  Radical islamic terrorism was going on way before 2001.
  - freeflight 5y ago
    I didn't write radical Islamic terrorism didn't exist before 2001, I wrote it emerged at never before seen scales. And I have plenty of data to back that statement. In Western Europe Islamic terrorism was pretty much a non-issue [0]. It only started becoming an issue after 2003, after the invasion of Iraq, when AQ conducted attacks on Madrid and London, respectively Spain and UK, both countries being part of the coalition of the "willing" that invaded Iraq. That was very much a direct response, one that previously wouldn't have been possible as AQ lacked the resources and people in Western Europe to conduct these kinds of operations. They got these resources and people when the US declared them "enemy #1" and started bombing and invading Muslim countries, displacing Muslims as refugees deep into Western Europe [1], many of them holding resentments over what happened to them and their countries as their worst fears about what an "American crusade" [2] would actually entail in reality. Over time AQ Iraq, which under Saddam wasn't even a thing, would ultimately turn into ISIS, an ISIS that parades its prisoners around in very similar uniforms [3] to those the US paraded them around, which is not a coincidence, it's a direct reference [4]. Even when you look at the global picture, this "war on terrorism" did the same as the "war on drugs" had; It didn't end terrorism, it made it thrive [5]. Anybody who looks at that and declares it "settled" does not understand the kind of impact this had on literally the whole world. [0] https://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015 https://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-p... [1] https://earthtime.org/stories/global_refugee_crisis_the_big_picture https://earthtime.org/stories/global_refugee_crisis_the_big_... [2] https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html https://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html [3] https://twitter.com/syricide/status/505043264907804672 https://twitter.com/syricide/status/505043264907804672 [4] https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-isis-leader-was-held-in-notorious-abu-ghraib-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-is... [5] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fatalities-from-terrorism?tab=chart&time=earliest..2017&country=~OWID_WRL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fatalities-from-terrorism...

alkonaut 5y ago

That’s whataboutism. Most liberal democracies didn’t invade anyone recently and have free press and a history of little recent human rights abuse. It’s possible to criticize China on its own merits without somehow excusing anyone else. I’d happily pay more for goods from manufacturers saying they avoid China. Hopefully this will be easier and cheaper in coming years.