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> It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority

> It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. This seems flawed to me. Do poor people get to queue up for MIQ? No, because they can’t qualify for the visa scheme because they aren’t rich enough. So it’s not really equal treatment for these new residents because they are already given an advantage because of their money. They qualify simply because they are rich. Equal treatment would be letting all foreigners apply for the same visa scheme based on non-monetary merits such as occupation.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. And okay, that's a reasonable point to make — in isolation. But in context, do you honestly suggest that the New Zealand outrage described here would be remedied by opening more visas to more people, and getting them into the quarantine?
- nowherebeen 5y ago
  This kind of brings the question should this kind of visa scheme exist in the first place during Covid. From my very limited knowledge, these are just pledges, not actual investments. Given a) NZ tiny market, b) high corporate tax rate, and c) isolation as an Oceania island (shipping), would it make sense to invest in NZ right now? My bet is that they expect Covid to end in the next 1-2 years and all these rich people will leave. These new residents are simply taking advantage of this visa scheme and not actually long term residents. That’s just my 2 cents and I may be wrong.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    My understanding of these schemes is that they are generally designed for rich people who accumulated wealth in countries where they might like to have a backup option if their government gets in a particularly seize-y mood. (e.g. China or Russia)
    - nowherebeen 5y ago
      Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US? That was my impression. The middle class are usually Chinese. But regardless, rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair. Is NZ okay with this kind of wealth transfer to their country knowing this? (Well we all know the answer honestly)
      - sabellito 5y ago
        > rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair When you say it like that, creating a contrast between "east and west" and dishonest/criminal behaviour, it sounds a bit racist. Perhaps you'd like to expand on that point?
        nowherebeen 5y ago
        True. I can only say as a Software Engineer, the tech industry in China is highly unfair from my personal experience. There are a lot of bullying tactics involve for startups that are not invested by Tencent and Alibaba. Startup founders themselves are not much better because they don't give equity to employees. Therefore, all the wealth accumulates to the founder and their investors, while the employees slave away under 996. I wouldn't say it is criminal behavior though. I specific choose the word unfair for this reason. I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either. As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize. > Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not usually on the list for rich Chinese people. They go to Singapore. But it is for rich Americans like Larry Page, Peter Thiel, and a few Silicon Valley execs.
        sabellito 5y ago
        You're saying that since, based on your personal experience, China doesn't play fair, NZ shouldn't be ok with this kind of wealth transfer? What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? Your point about playing fair seems a bit specific. Do you think american and european startups play fair? So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?
- ericmay 5y ago
  > I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. This will probably happen, maybe in our lifetimes but it’ll be at the expense of the nation state and blocs like the EU. Probably a good thing such that people can choose where they want to live but it’ll eventually revert back to borders again very quickly as the wealthy shore up resources in the best places and then leave everyone else to fend for themselves. We already saw this “wealth flight” during the pandemic when remote tech workers and executives fled cities and high taxes to create their own little versions of Galt’s Gulch all over the mountain west and no income tax states. When we get to open border policies under the auspices of fueling economic growth you’ll see this occur again. And when this occurs the shells of former nation states will no longer provide services like healthcare because there won’t be anybody to pay for it. The wealthy certainly won’t.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. And okay, that's a reasonable point to make — in isolation. But in context, do you honestly suggest that the New Zealand outrage described here would be remedied by opening more visas to more people, and getting them into the quarantine?

nowherebeen 5y ago
This kind of brings the question should this kind of visa scheme exist in the first place during Covid. From my very limited knowledge, these are just pledges, not actual investments. Given a) NZ tiny market, b) high corporate tax rate, and c) isolation as an Oceania island (shipping), would it make sense to invest in NZ right now? My bet is that they expect Covid to end in the next 1-2 years and all these rich people will leave. These new residents are simply taking advantage of this visa scheme and not actually long term residents. That’s just my 2 cents and I may be wrong.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  My understanding of these schemes is that they are generally designed for rich people who accumulated wealth in countries where they might like to have a backup option if their government gets in a particularly seize-y mood. (e.g. China or Russia)
  - nowherebeen 5y ago
    Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US? That was my impression. The middle class are usually Chinese. But regardless, rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair. Is NZ okay with this kind of wealth transfer to their country knowing this? (Well we all know the answer honestly)
    - sabellito 5y ago
      > rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair When you say it like that, creating a contrast between "east and west" and dishonest/criminal behaviour, it sounds a bit racist. Perhaps you'd like to expand on that point?
      - nowherebeen 5y ago
        True. I can only say as a Software Engineer, the tech industry in China is highly unfair from my personal experience. There are a lot of bullying tactics involve for startups that are not invested by Tencent and Alibaba. Startup founders themselves are not much better because they don't give equity to employees. Therefore, all the wealth accumulates to the founder and their investors, while the employees slave away under 996. I wouldn't say it is criminal behavior though. I specific choose the word unfair for this reason. I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either. As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize. > Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not usually on the list for rich Chinese people. They go to Singapore. But it is for rich Americans like Larry Page, Peter Thiel, and a few Silicon Valley execs.
        sabellito 5y ago
        You're saying that since, based on your personal experience, China doesn't play fair, NZ shouldn't be ok with this kind of wealth transfer? What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? Your point about playing fair seems a bit specific. Do you think american and european startups play fair? So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?
ericmay 5y ago
> I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. This will probably happen, maybe in our lifetimes but it’ll be at the expense of the nation state and blocs like the EU. Probably a good thing such that people can choose where they want to live but it’ll eventually revert back to borders again very quickly as the wealthy shore up resources in the best places and then leave everyone else to fend for themselves. We already saw this “wealth flight” during the pandemic when remote tech workers and executives fled cities and high taxes to create their own little versions of Galt’s Gulch all over the mountain west and no income tax states. When we get to open border policies under the auspices of fueling economic growth you’ll see this occur again. And when this occurs the shells of former nation states will no longer provide services like healthcare because there won’t be anybody to pay for it. The wealthy certainly won’t.