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Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn'

Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food.

justinclift 5y ago
Is there a reasonable chance it would help you create better software product(s)?
- 1270018080 5y ago
  Given a 40 hour workweek constraint, the opportunity cost might be negative. I'm sure DoorDash has Design/Product/Research departments who would get more out of doing this anyway.
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food. Preface: I'm going to assume you are not just proficient at what you do, perhaps even beyond above competent, as a developer (likely calling yourself an engineer when it suits you). But it's this type of hubris that so is prevalent in the FAANG World makes me feel so... aghast at the tech bro/coder World. I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing: be it an app, product or solution. This is why I think tech fails in the Corp World: after a while you get big enough and attract a certain type of worker and foster an environment where entitlement sets in, mission creep lingers and people feel almost ostentatiously incapable of putting themselves in First Person perspective when trying to solve a problem and would rather waste time with focus groups, endless board meetings, online polling or whatever the proper channels are that keep them locked in their ivory tower. This is how you get mediocrity, by being so detached from the experiences and feedback from those you are trying to serve; abstracting your work away as something it's not (I also worked as a developer and consultant) is a fool's errand and I'm sad to say it's a significant part of I walked away from tech--the technology we worked on for years as an opensource project was being re-branded as something it's not, by people who never understood it as a means to stay relevant but ultimately failed to execute despite having first mover advantage, immense backing and support from the Corporate partners eager to try the technology. The way to build a better mouse trap, is to be immersed in mouse trapping. I'm back to tech, I never really left but I just stopped making it how I earned a living to regain sanity as well as passion, and I'm now primarily focused on ML after tracking it for a few years in a specific Industry and I'm starting to see this exact thing happen in that ecosystem now, too. I'm going to focus on the non-sexy projects in the belief that maybe it won't be like that this time because I can't be bothered with this white glove developer syndrome. It's the tech World's version of affluenza.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Or maybe there is a different way to gain insight into what you're building, still build cutting edge solutions to real world problems, without having to actually be able to perform the job you're trying to augment? Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers.
  - Melting_Harps 5y ago
    > Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? > Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Consider your limitations as a developer, and having your department defer to hiring or consulting from trained and experienced medical professionals to help guide and shape what it is you are making? Along with ongoing hands on training for targeted demographic for insight and instant feedback I can't think of a way for cross-disciplinary innovation to occur. > Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? This is an extreme, because while I'm sure blind developers exist, I'm also sure they are a small minority and are likely NOT working on main developer roles for AV; but if they were I bet they were doing so collaboratively amongst other able bodied developers who are relying on training deep learning model rather than making an if else command for his colleagues never seen 'what to do if a baby carriage steps out of your Tesla' situation. You are resorting to hyperbole to try to make a weak point and it doesn't bode well for the substance of your argument, either way I think you get what I'm trying to say, albeit some what condescending manner. You can agree or disagree with it, but I think this is a major trigger point for so many here (likely the FAANG/MANGA underlings) they know it's a bone of contention. > There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers. I disagree. You can be a developer, and as noted in my preface an above competent one, but I hardly think you'd call yourself an excellent one in the presence of an actual excellent one if you've ever met one. I'm cognizant that I am not nor do I dire to be an excellent developer and I've been humbled when I have met one and they are usually obsessed and perhaps tortured by their obsessions which they are focused on; still, despite it being somewhat socially awkward it was a worthwhile experience.
powerapple 5y ago
It will give valuable insights on the product you are building, I think it is a wonderful idea. Programming is a tool, the goal is to solve a problem, not the code itself (unless you are more academic), I would enjoy it. The thing I hate most is that I do not understand my customers, working in a vacuum.
- ssdspoimdsjvv 5y ago
  I agree that it would be valuable, but the article states they have to do it once per month?? That is overkill.
- throwuxiytayq 5y ago
  The average programmer is already wasting most of their productive brain-time on standups, meetings and jiras. Many of my friends just want to write code but are instead forced to participate in this collective corporate waste of time. I'm sure delivering food is a great pastime, but management isn't going to make any friends among the technical folk.
  - pizza 5y ago
    But your job isn't to write code. It's to improve the product.
    - ttymck 5y ago
      At an organization as large as DoorDash, that simply isn't true for IC engineers. Their job is to implement the product requirements. It might be more sensible to provide the option to do deliveries, to the engineers who are interested. Their voluntary interest in improving the product is a positive sign that they may develop beyond their current role. Edit: I meant to add, as others mentioned, there are other departments who would more benefit from this program. As I suggested above, the product requirements come from a long line of bureaucrats: the product designers and business analysts are primed to make the most of this program.
ALittleLight 5y ago
Some people see themselves as being software engineers. Some people see themselves as trying to deliver a good product. There are circumstances where the most valuable contribution you can make is doing delivery.

Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food.

justinclift 5y ago

Is there a reasonable chance it would help you create better software product(s)?

1270018080 5y ago
Given a 40 hour workweek constraint, the opportunity cost might be negative. I'm sure DoorDash has Design/Product/Research departments who would get more out of doing this anyway.

Melting_Harps 5y ago

> Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food. Preface: I'm going to assume you are not just proficient at what you do, perhaps even beyond above competent, as a developer (likely calling yourself an engineer when it suits you). But it's this type of hubris that so is prevalent in the FAANG World makes me feel so... aghast at the tech bro/coder World. I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing: be it an app, product or solution. This is why I think tech fails in the Corp World: after a while you get big enough and attract a certain type of worker and foster an environment where entitlement sets in, mission creep lingers and people feel almost ostentatiously incapable of putting themselves in First Person perspective when trying to solve a problem and would rather waste time with focus groups, endless board meetings, online polling or whatever the proper channels are that keep them locked in their ivory tower. This is how you get mediocrity, by being so detached from the experiences and feedback from those you are trying to serve; abstracting your work away as something it's not (I also worked as a developer and consultant) is a fool's errand and I'm sad to say it's a significant part of I walked away from tech--the technology we worked on for years as an opensource project was being re-branded as something it's not, by people who never understood it as a means to stay relevant but ultimately failed to execute despite having first mover advantage, immense backing and support from the Corporate partners eager to try the technology. The way to build a better mouse trap, is to be immersed in mouse trapping. I'm back to tech, I never really left but I just stopped making it how I earned a living to regain sanity as well as passion, and I'm now primarily focused on ML after tracking it for a few years in a specific Industry and I'm starting to see this exact thing happen in that ecosystem now, too. I'm going to focus on the non-sexy projects in the belief that maybe it won't be like that this time because I can't be bothered with this white glove developer syndrome. It's the tech World's version of affluenza.

bluefirebrand 5y ago
> I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Or maybe there is a different way to gain insight into what you're building, still build cutting edge solutions to real world problems, without having to actually be able to perform the job you're trying to augment? Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers.
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? > Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Consider your limitations as a developer, and having your department defer to hiring or consulting from trained and experienced medical professionals to help guide and shape what it is you are making? Along with ongoing hands on training for targeted demographic for insight and instant feedback I can't think of a way for cross-disciplinary innovation to occur. > Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? This is an extreme, because while I'm sure blind developers exist, I'm also sure they are a small minority and are likely NOT working on main developer roles for AV; but if they were I bet they were doing so collaboratively amongst other able bodied developers who are relying on training deep learning model rather than making an if else command for his colleagues never seen 'what to do if a baby carriage steps out of your Tesla' situation. You are resorting to hyperbole to try to make a weak point and it doesn't bode well for the substance of your argument, either way I think you get what I'm trying to say, albeit some what condescending manner. You can agree or disagree with it, but I think this is a major trigger point for so many here (likely the FAANG/MANGA underlings) they know it's a bone of contention. > There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers. I disagree. You can be a developer, and as noted in my preface an above competent one, but I hardly think you'd call yourself an excellent one in the presence of an actual excellent one if you've ever met one. I'm cognizant that I am not nor do I dire to be an excellent developer and I've been humbled when I have met one and they are usually obsessed and perhaps tortured by their obsessions which they are focused on; still, despite it being somewhat socially awkward it was a worthwhile experience.

powerapple 5y ago

It will give valuable insights on the product you are building, I think it is a wonderful idea. Programming is a tool, the goal is to solve a problem, not the code itself (unless you are more academic), I would enjoy it. The thing I hate most is that I do not understand my customers, working in a vacuum.

ssdspoimdsjvv 5y ago
I agree that it would be valuable, but the article states they have to do it once per month?? That is overkill.
throwuxiytayq 5y ago
The average programmer is already wasting most of their productive brain-time on standups, meetings and jiras. Many of my friends just want to write code but are instead forced to participate in this collective corporate waste of time. I'm sure delivering food is a great pastime, but management isn't going to make any friends among the technical folk.
- pizza 5y ago
  But your job isn't to write code. It's to improve the product.
  - ttymck 5y ago
    At an organization as large as DoorDash, that simply isn't true for IC engineers. Their job is to implement the product requirements. It might be more sensible to provide the option to do deliveries, to the engineers who are interested. Their voluntary interest in improving the product is a positive sign that they may develop beyond their current role. Edit: I meant to add, as others mentioned, there are other departments who would more benefit from this program. As I suggested above, the product requirements come from a long line of bureaucrats: the product designers and business analysts are primed to make the most of this program.

ALittleLight 5y ago

Some people see themselves as being software engineers. Some people see themselves as trying to deliver a good product. There are circumstances where the most valuable contribution you can make is doing delivery.