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This is really not how law works. Courts don't enforce whatever's written (look up "unconscionability" for one thing), and contracts are parsed as an attempt to

This is really not how law works. Courts don't enforce whatever's written (look up "unconscionability" for one thing), and contracts are parsed as an attempt to come to a mutual agreement ("meeting of the minds"). Law has a very specialized vocabulary, and contracts are influenced by a great deal of case law, but it's not a game of tricks.

catillac 5y ago
You’re right mostly. It is about reaching a meeting of the minds. And law isn’t some thing with “loopholes” and “one weird tricks” but contracts generally contain integration clauses that state that the entirety of the agreement is contained inside the language of the signed contract itself. What this means is that as long as the terms are not illegal (such as usurious interest rates or run afoul of consumer protection laws or any number of other things), typically if it’s in the contract, it’s enforced. This manifests itself in situations where someone will cross out clauses that they object to before signing and those clauses don’t have any effect given they’re stricken, or where things are added and then enforced. This creates a little need for trust among legal peers because this sort of thing can happen if one is not careful, but in a professional environment adding in things randomly is a serious breach of trust.
twhb 5y ago
All the obfuscation I described is present in EULAs, ToSs, and US law, all of which are enforced, when called upon, mostly as written. Maybe there is a higher standard in custom B2B contracts, but that really gets down to the point of it: you start seeing clear communication only when the speaker is motivated to be understood. And I wouldn’t call it trickery, because that implies intent. I think the forces at play make no distinction between a knowing operator and somebody who just does what’s normal, what’s safe. I think plenty of companies slap an unintelligible ToS on their website not as a trick, not even thinking of it as unintelligible, but just because there’s good evidence that this particular boilerplate protects them in court.
- cm2012 5y ago
  If some random website has a ToS that said by using this service you sign over the deed to your house and add our company to your will, no court would enforce that. Pretty much anything unusual outside of the standard terms is hard to get a court to enforce in a b2c ToS setting.
  - catlikesshrimp 5y ago
    I wouldn't risk it
vasco 5y ago
A lot of time the vocabulary has equivalents people would regularly understand, what advantage is there in keeping the obtuse language? I understand old laws exist but in such cases new laws could point to the equivalency instead of continuing the undecipherable mess.
- toomanybeersies 5y ago
  > what advantage is there in keeping the obtuse language? Because if a new legal vocabulary was introduced, I would now have to read contracts in both "old legalese" and "new legalese". I don't think it really matters how clearly contracts are written or how simple the language is; most people won't read them anyway.

catillac 5y ago

You’re right mostly. It is about reaching a meeting of the minds. And law isn’t some thing with “loopholes” and “one weird tricks” but contracts generally contain integration clauses that state that the entirety of the agreement is contained inside the language of the signed contract itself. What this means is that as long as the terms are not illegal (such as usurious interest rates or run afoul of consumer protection laws or any number of other things), typically if it’s in the contract, it’s enforced. This manifests itself in situations where someone will cross out clauses that they object to before signing and those clauses don’t have any effect given they’re stricken, or where things are added and then enforced. This creates a little need for trust among legal peers because this sort of thing can happen if one is not careful, but in a professional environment adding in things randomly is a serious breach of trust.

twhb 5y ago

All the obfuscation I described is present in EULAs, ToSs, and US law, all of which are enforced, when called upon, mostly as written. Maybe there is a higher standard in custom B2B contracts, but that really gets down to the point of it: you start seeing clear communication only when the speaker is motivated to be understood. And I wouldn’t call it trickery, because that implies intent. I think the forces at play make no distinction between a knowing operator and somebody who just does what’s normal, what’s safe. I think plenty of companies slap an unintelligible ToS on their website not as a trick, not even thinking of it as unintelligible, but just because there’s good evidence that this particular boilerplate protects them in court.

cm2012 5y ago
If some random website has a ToS that said by using this service you sign over the deed to your house and add our company to your will, no court would enforce that. Pretty much anything unusual outside of the standard terms is hard to get a court to enforce in a b2c ToS setting.
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  I wouldn't risk it

vasco 5y ago

A lot of time the vocabulary has equivalents people would regularly understand, what advantage is there in keeping the obtuse language? I understand old laws exist but in such cases new laws could point to the equivalency instead of continuing the undecipherable mess.

toomanybeersies 5y ago
> what advantage is there in keeping the obtuse language? Because if a new legal vocabulary was introduced, I would now have to read contracts in both "old legalese" and "new legalese". I don't think it really matters how clearly contracts are written or how simple the language is; most people won't read them anyway.