4 ms·

I wonder about this from a legal perspective. Everyone knows that no one reads the T&C but companies will argue that they do. But here they're tacitly admitti

by treis 5y ago

I wonder about this from a legal perspective. Everyone knows that no one reads the T&C but companies will argue that they do. But here they're tacitly admitting that they know their customers aren't reading the T&Cs. So where's the meeting of the minds to enforce any of it?

Gigachad 5y ago
The TOS largely don’t matter. They can generally be summed up to “we reserve the right to use your data however you want and ban/delete/modify your account for any reason”
axiosgunnar 5y ago
By signing without having read all of the contract, you are voluntarily forfeiting your right and agree to be bound by whatever is in there. Basically you are signing a blank cheque. Therefore, to protect consumers, modern legal systems put limits to what T&Cs may contain (everything past the red lines is nonbinding)
- walrus01 5y ago
  interestingly I have seen the UI design choice to prevent you from agreeing to the T&C unless you at least scroll all the way to the bottom of it (not a guarantee you've read it, however). noticed this recently with the official apple app to find nearby airtags on android. https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/13/22832731/apple-android-app-airtag-search-tracker-detect-find-my https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/13/22832731/apple-android-a...
  - MereInterest 5y ago
    There's also UI trends in the opposite direction, encouraging users not to read a contract at all. After "signing" a location, DocuSign will automatically scroll to the next place requiring a "signature". In order to actually read the contract, you must scroll back to the earlier location. Or, the inability to mark up a contract while going through it. With a physical contract, changes can be written in and initialed. In DocuSign, any changes require an out-of-band communication, adjustment by the party preparing the contract, and re-issuing. There's no reason that it couldn't be handled in-band, with changes inserted, highlighted, and sent back for the other party to sign. Instead, it only presents the option of signing as-is.
    - walrus01 5y ago
      that's just terrible all around. I'm glad that at least some docusign competitors exist. Docusign pricing is also nuts for what you get. It does seem to have become entrenched as the default choice by office admin people who don't know anything else exists. you know something has gone wrong when a subscription based adobe product has better pricing than docusign.
    - dannyw 5y ago
      DocuSign is for contract execution. You shouldn't send a packet unless both parties are willing to execute.
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    Without the forced scrolling, it would be reasonable to argue that the contract agreed to was the contract displayed on the screen, especially if the signer is a novice computer user.
  - justsomehnguy 5y ago
    Broadcom support site does this. > BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE PACKAGE, CLICKING ON THE "ACCEPT" BUTTON [skip] > Please scroll through the text to read this agreement. Also this sometimes were played in the install kits for a various software, both with scrolling and even a humourous "WOW! Did you really read our EULA in 1.59 seconds?!"
- treis 5y ago
  We do that because it's good public policy for the counterparty to be able to rely on the signature as evidence of meeting of minds. But if both parties know that it hasn't happened why should it be enforced?
jessaustin 5y ago
This event seems to prove that people do read the contract: they had planned to run the contest for a year but it was over in less than a day. The insurer might have viewed this as research to do before slipping in something really egregious, but since that hypothesis failed they (or any other firm, really) can use this research to argue that at least one customer per day reads the fine print.
- Closi 5y ago
  Well I guess it showed that they thought it was read by nobody, but in reality it is just viewed by a fraction of 1% of customers. (Assuming this is a large enough company to have a few hundred insurance sales each day).
stefan_ 5y ago
In most sane countries there are strong limits on contracts for ordinary things such as renting, employment or purchases and most creative clauses you would come up with would simply be invalid if ever challenged.
- II2II 5y ago
  That is very true. I once rented a place that was essentially shared accommodation with an elderly woman. I reviewed rental laws carefully, determined that I was renting a legally separate unit, and maintained good relations with both her and her children. Everything went well during the duration of my stay, but cases like that only work out when the law is properly crafted and nobody views themselves as above the law.
dqv 5y ago
I think the meeting of the minds happens at the point where it reaches what the customer should know. That is, the customer is not only agreeing to the T&C, they're agreeing that they should know what is contained in the T&C (even if they don't really know). But the point you're trying to make touches on contract ergonomics (is that even a thing?) and why I try to make contracts that are as short and to the point as possible. Maybe some lawyer will tell me I'm making a mistake, but of course it's a mistake not to rack up billable hours ;) Most people are making an agreement in good faith. Bad actors will exploit a three page contract or a one thousand page contract.
- danuker 5y ago
  > but of course it's a mistake not to rack up billable hours ;) Doesn't making a contract shorter rather than longer imply significant rewriting? “Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.” — Henry David Thoreau
  - dqv 5y ago
    That's true. I wouldn't mind paying a lawyer more to write less. I imagine the question of "why am I paying so much when you did so little" comes up a lot of the contract the lawyer produces isn't long.

by treis 5y ago

Gigachad 5y ago

The TOS largely don’t matter. They can generally be summed up to “we reserve the right to use your data however you want and ban/delete/modify your account for any reason”

axiosgunnar 5y ago

By signing without having read all of the contract, you are voluntarily forfeiting your right and agree to be bound by whatever is in there. Basically you are signing a blank cheque. Therefore, to protect consumers, modern legal systems put limits to what T&Cs may contain (everything past the red lines is nonbinding)

walrus01 5y ago
interestingly I have seen the UI design choice to prevent you from agreeing to the T&C unless you at least scroll all the way to the bottom of it (not a guarantee you've read it, however). noticed this recently with the official apple app to find nearby airtags on android. https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/13/22832731/apple-android-app-airtag-search-tracker-detect-find-my https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/13/22832731/apple-android-a...
- MereInterest 5y ago
  There's also UI trends in the opposite direction, encouraging users not to read a contract at all. After "signing" a location, DocuSign will automatically scroll to the next place requiring a "signature". In order to actually read the contract, you must scroll back to the earlier location. Or, the inability to mark up a contract while going through it. With a physical contract, changes can be written in and initialed. In DocuSign, any changes require an out-of-band communication, adjustment by the party preparing the contract, and re-issuing. There's no reason that it couldn't be handled in-band, with changes inserted, highlighted, and sent back for the other party to sign. Instead, it only presents the option of signing as-is.
  - walrus01 5y ago
    that's just terrible all around. I'm glad that at least some docusign competitors exist. Docusign pricing is also nuts for what you get. It does seem to have become entrenched as the default choice by office admin people who don't know anything else exists. you know something has gone wrong when a subscription based adobe product has better pricing than docusign.
  - dannyw 5y ago
    DocuSign is for contract execution. You shouldn't send a packet unless both parties are willing to execute.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  Without the forced scrolling, it would be reasonable to argue that the contract agreed to was the contract displayed on the screen, especially if the signer is a novice computer user.
- justsomehnguy 5y ago
  Broadcom support site does this. > BY OPENING THE SOFTWARE PACKAGE, CLICKING ON THE "ACCEPT" BUTTON [skip] > Please scroll through the text to read this agreement. Also this sometimes were played in the install kits for a various software, both with scrolling and even a humourous "WOW! Did you really read our EULA in 1.59 seconds?!"
treis 5y ago
We do that because it's good public policy for the counterparty to be able to rely on the signature as evidence of meeting of minds. But if both parties know that it hasn't happened why should it be enforced?

jessaustin 5y ago

This event seems to prove that people do read the contract: they had planned to run the contest for a year but it was over in less than a day. The insurer might have viewed this as research to do before slipping in something really egregious, but since that hypothesis failed they (or any other firm, really) can use this research to argue that at least one customer per day reads the fine print.

Closi 5y ago
Well I guess it showed that they thought it was read by nobody, but in reality it is just viewed by a fraction of 1% of customers. (Assuming this is a large enough company to have a few hundred insurance sales each day).

stefan_ 5y ago

In most sane countries there are strong limits on contracts for ordinary things such as renting, employment or purchases and most creative clauses you would come up with would simply be invalid if ever challenged.

II2II 5y ago
That is very true. I once rented a place that was essentially shared accommodation with an elderly woman. I reviewed rental laws carefully, determined that I was renting a legally separate unit, and maintained good relations with both her and her children. Everything went well during the duration of my stay, but cases like that only work out when the law is properly crafted and nobody views themselves as above the law.

dqv 5y ago

I think the meeting of the minds happens at the point where it reaches what the customer should know. That is, the customer is not only agreeing to the T&C, they're agreeing that they should know what is contained in the T&C (even if they don't really know). But the point you're trying to make touches on contract ergonomics (is that even a thing?) and why I try to make contracts that are as short and to the point as possible. Maybe some lawyer will tell me I'm making a mistake, but of course it's a mistake not to rack up billable hours ;) Most people are making an agreement in good faith. Bad actors will exploit a three page contract or a one thousand page contract.

danuker 5y ago
> but of course it's a mistake not to rack up billable hours ;) Doesn't making a contract shorter rather than longer imply significant rewriting? “Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.” — Henry David Thoreau
- dqv 5y ago
  That's true. I wouldn't mind paying a lawyer more to write less. I imagine the question of "why am I paying so much when you did so little" comes up a lot of the contract the lawyer produces isn't long.