5 ms·

> There are plenty of issues, but there are also plenty of solutions. You're having issues sending because your netblock sucks and you don't have money for some

> There are plenty of issues, but there are also plenty of solutions. You're having issues sending because your netblock sucks and you don't have money for something better? Pay a few dollars to smarthost, for instance. I do and outlook.com still gives a shit and doesn't accept incoming emails. There is also no way to get their attention for this issue, as they simply don't reply to complaints about that. How to solve issues like that? > We should encourage MORE people to self-host email, not less. We should never just assume the monopolies are the best we can do. That's something I can wholeheartedly agree with.

dqv 5y ago
What kind of mail are you sending? Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address? Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]? If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help. >There is also no way to get their attention for this issue, as they simply don't reply to complaints about that. How to solve issues like that? At one point, after getting one-too-many rejections for a particular recipient, I started sending the postmaster of the recipient’s service an email every time I needed to contact the recipient. That resolved the issue pretty quickly. You can always try annoying the postmaster. [0]: https://postmaster.live.com/snds/JMRP.aspx https://postmaster.live.com/snds/JMRP.aspx [1]: https://www.mailop.org/ https://www.mailop.org/
- Dunedan 5y ago
  > What kind of mail are you sending? Just personal emails. Volume would be somewhere around one email per month or so. > Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address? Nope. > Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]? That seems to require a Microsoft account and that's something I neither have nor want. I believe sending emails has to work without having to register an account for each provider you're interacting with. > If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help. Thanks for the tip, although I'm not sure if I'm the right audience for this list, as I just run a personal mail server with very low volume. Funnily enough the "Best practices" section of the Mailop website contains a dedicated point (https://www.mailop.org/best-practices/#large-providers-gmail-microsoft-etc https://www.mailop.org/best-practices/#large-providers-gmail...) stating that there might be unresolvable issues when sending to large providers: > If you want to send mail to recipients who have accounts at big email providers, be aware that all of the above cannot guarantee that these providers won’t reject your mail, put it straight into recipient’s spam folder or just silently discard it - they just impose their own rules on anyone and you virtually can’t do anything about it. My guess is, that the reason for the problems is the same as quoted in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29673347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29673347), stating that the mail volume is just too low for outlook.com to establish enough trust in the sending mail server. If you look around on the internet, there are plenty of other people with the same issues with outlook.com. To me it seems Microsoft is doing something fundamentally hostile to small mail servers there. Interestingly enough sending to Office 365 hosted email addresses works just fine.
  - dqv 5y ago
    >That seems to require a Microsoft account and that's something I neither have nor want. I believe sending emails has to work without having to register an account for each provider you're interacting with. Yes it does require signing up with them. I see that you’re taking a moral stance on this so I guess the best action is to just ask people to not use Microsoft email products, which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion. For what it’s worth, I do have an account with them and I am very small scale and don’t have any deliverability issues with Microsoft.
mrich 5y ago
In my dealings with outlook postmaster my experience is as follows: They ignore any argument you make or proof you show them that their servers are accepting emails and then silently dropping them. So that's basically the experience you mention. However they will immediately unban your IP when you mention that you will recommend your customers switch away from Outlook email since it is unreliable. That's for a totally clean IP with no spam issues.
- dreamcompiler 5y ago
  How are you going to make that recommendation to your customers if they can't receive your emails? (Of course I'm being facetious; other communication channels exist. But the idea made me think of the interrogation scene in The Matrix with Microsoft in the role of Agent Smith.)
  - mrich 5y ago
    :)

dqv 5y ago

What kind of mail are you sending? Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address? Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]? If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help. >There is also no way to get their attention for this issue, as they simply don't reply to complaints about that. How to solve issues like that? At one point, after getting one-too-many rejections for a particular recipient, I started sending the postmaster of the recipient’s service an email every time I needed to contact the recipient. That resolved the issue pretty quickly. You can always try annoying the postmaster. [0]: https://postmaster.live.com/snds/JMRP.aspx https://postmaster.live.com/snds/JMRP.aspx [1]: https://www.mailop.org/ https://www.mailop.org/

Dunedan 5y ago
> What kind of mail are you sending? Just personal emails. Volume would be somewhere around one email per month or so. > Are you getting anything on your abuse@ address? Nope. > Are you getting any feedback on JMRP [0]? That seems to require a Microsoft account and that's something I neither have nor want. I believe sending emails has to work without having to register an account for each provider you're interacting with. > If all else fails, the mailop mailing list [1] can get you closer to someone on one of these networks to help. Thanks for the tip, although I'm not sure if I'm the right audience for this list, as I just run a personal mail server with very low volume. Funnily enough the "Best practices" section of the Mailop website contains a dedicated point (https://www.mailop.org/best-practices/#large-providers-gmail-microsoft-etc https://www.mailop.org/best-practices/#large-providers-gmail...) stating that there might be unresolvable issues when sending to large providers: > If you want to send mail to recipients who have accounts at big email providers, be aware that all of the above cannot guarantee that these providers won’t reject your mail, put it straight into recipient’s spam folder or just silently discard it - they just impose their own rules on anyone and you virtually can’t do anything about it. My guess is, that the reason for the problems is the same as quoted in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29673347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29673347), stating that the mail volume is just too low for outlook.com to establish enough trust in the sending mail server. If you look around on the internet, there are plenty of other people with the same issues with outlook.com. To me it seems Microsoft is doing something fundamentally hostile to small mail servers there. Interestingly enough sending to Office 365 hosted email addresses works just fine.
- dqv 5y ago
  >That seems to require a Microsoft account and that's something I neither have nor want. I believe sending emails has to work without having to register an account for each provider you're interacting with. Yes it does require signing up with them. I see that you’re taking a moral stance on this so I guess the best action is to just ask people to not use Microsoft email products, which is perfectly reasonable in my opinion. For what it’s worth, I do have an account with them and I am very small scale and don’t have any deliverability issues with Microsoft.

mrich 5y ago

In my dealings with outlook postmaster my experience is as follows: They ignore any argument you make or proof you show them that their servers are accepting emails and then silently dropping them. So that's basically the experience you mention. However they will immediately unban your IP when you mention that you will recommend your customers switch away from Outlook email since it is unreliable. That's for a totally clean IP with no spam issues.

dreamcompiler 5y ago
How are you going to make that recommendation to your customers if they can't receive your emails? (Of course I'm being facetious; other communication channels exist. But the idea made me think of the interrogation scene in The Matrix with Microsoft in the role of Agent Smith.)
- mrich 5y ago
  :)