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Nordstrom (my wife works there) does something similar where folks who work in corporate have to work a shift on the retail floor. Generally it seems like a wis

Nordstrom (my wife works there) does something similar where folks who work in corporate have to work a shift on the retail floor. Generally it seems like a wise policy imo. I’m a little baffled by the comments about how delivering food is somehow “beneath” an engineer. It isn’t, and sometimes seeing how the things you build are used by employees can expose unknown unknowns that need fixing for both customer and employee.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Honestly it might be kinda fun to do something like that once a month. Especially if they're paying you an engineering wage to do it. Not for everyone I guess but I would enjoy it. Personally I would love to embed with my customer teams for a few weeks a year to work on their integration with my product. But in my organization the incentives are not set up that way so it would not be a viable thing for me to do unilaterally.
- redisman 5y ago
  Yeah it sounds kind of cool. I used to work min wage jobs while in school . Driving a car to pick up some food for $100+/h sounds like a nice break from programming
1270018080 5y ago
Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food.
- justinclift 5y ago
  Is there a reasonable chance it would help you create better software product(s)?
  - 1270018080 5y ago
    Given a 40 hour workweek constraint, the opportunity cost might be negative. I'm sure DoorDash has Design/Product/Research departments who would get more out of doing this anyway.
- Melting_Harps 5y ago
  > Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food. Preface: I'm going to assume you are not just proficient at what you do, perhaps even beyond above competent, as a developer (likely calling yourself an engineer when it suits you). But it's this type of hubris that so is prevalent in the FAANG World makes me feel so... aghast at the tech bro/coder World. I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing: be it an app, product or solution. This is why I think tech fails in the Corp World: after a while you get big enough and attract a certain type of worker and foster an environment where entitlement sets in, mission creep lingers and people feel almost ostentatiously incapable of putting themselves in First Person perspective when trying to solve a problem and would rather waste time with focus groups, endless board meetings, online polling or whatever the proper channels are that keep them locked in their ivory tower. This is how you get mediocrity, by being so detached from the experiences and feedback from those you are trying to serve; abstracting your work away as something it's not (I also worked as a developer and consultant) is a fool's errand and I'm sad to say it's a significant part of I walked away from tech--the technology we worked on for years as an opensource project was being re-branded as something it's not, by people who never understood it as a means to stay relevant but ultimately failed to execute despite having first mover advantage, immense backing and support from the Corporate partners eager to try the technology. The way to build a better mouse trap, is to be immersed in mouse trapping. I'm back to tech, I never really left but I just stopped making it how I earned a living to regain sanity as well as passion, and I'm now primarily focused on ML after tracking it for a few years in a specific Industry and I'm starting to see this exact thing happen in that ecosystem now, too. I'm going to focus on the non-sexy projects in the belief that maybe it won't be like that this time because I can't be bothered with this white glove developer syndrome. It's the tech World's version of affluenza.
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Or maybe there is a different way to gain insight into what you're building, still build cutting edge solutions to real world problems, without having to actually be able to perform the job you're trying to augment? Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers.
- powerapple 5y ago
  It will give valuable insights on the product you are building, I think it is a wonderful idea. Programming is a tool, the goal is to solve a problem, not the code itself (unless you are more academic), I would enjoy it. The thing I hate most is that I do not understand my customers, working in a vacuum.
  - ssdspoimdsjvv 5y ago
    I agree that it would be valuable, but the article states they have to do it once per month?? That is overkill.
  - throwuxiytayq 5y ago
    The average programmer is already wasting most of their productive brain-time on standups, meetings and jiras. Many of my friends just want to write code but are instead forced to participate in this collective corporate waste of time. I'm sure delivering food is a great pastime, but management isn't going to make any friends among the technical folk.
    - pizza 5y ago
      But your job isn't to write code. It's to improve the product.
      - ttymck 5y ago
        At an organization as large as DoorDash, that simply isn't true for IC engineers. Their job is to implement the product requirements. It might be more sensible to provide the option to do deliveries, to the engineers who are interested. Their voluntary interest in improving the product is a positive sign that they may develop beyond their current role. Edit: I meant to add, as others mentioned, there are other departments who would more benefit from this program. As I suggested above, the product requirements come from a long line of bureaucrats: the product designers and business analysts are primed to make the most of this program.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Some people see themselves as being software engineers. Some people see themselves as trying to deliver a good product. There are circumstances where the most valuable contribution you can make is doing delivery.
tsuujin 5y ago
The comments on that post are deplorable. However, I’ve been working in web development for many years and I have to say I am not surprised. I started my career working in paint stores, then moved to home renovation for low income families. I feel like I have a unique perspective on qualifications and worthiness that have been hard earned. I’m an engineering manager now for a large enterprise company; I worked my way up the ladder one rung at a time. I feel like I’ve earned my position and that I’m good at it. I also feel like basically anyone can do what I do with just a little bit of support and training. The idea that delivery work is beneath a developer is infuriating to me. It shows a lack of respect for an essential part of your business, and a lack of empathy for people who are realistically just not quite as lucky as them. Because that’s the major difference between the classes most of the time, luck and privilege. I don’t know why I felt the need to type this out, it just makes me so angry to see people show such contempt for each other based on trivial bullshit.
- Akronymus 5y ago
  I personally don't want to do what the cleaning staff does at work. But to me, that just indicates that they do it so that I don't have to, which in turn indicates that I should value them a lot.
- jelliclesfarm 5y ago
  Sadly no one cares if it’s infuriating to you. Your personal peaks are your own. For someone who got a PhD at age 17, a slow student is infuriating. Imagine if they said…if I can do it, anyone can.. We can’t go about imposing our lives and our life experiences upon others. We can’t expect everyone to ‘be like us’. By that notion, everyone who has an American passport has immense luck and privilege. You are showing a lack of respect to those who came up in life due to grit and hard work. Immigrants who have left home and often circumstances of hard grinding poverty and inequalities in their home countries..to make a prosperous life in a far away shore. It can be borderline trauma or PTSD. What is the point of leaving behind parents and friends and a social circle if it means that they can’t be feted for their hard work and sacrifice? I will tell you what’s more infuriating ..how lazy people who do gigs for ‘the experience’ cutting into a valid income stream for Americans who are uneducated, unskilled and poor. And I am not talking about the employees in the Door Dash gulag. I am talking about the guy who is insulted and throws food at someone’s doorstep and makes a TikTok video of it because this customer didn’t tip him according to expectations. Because anyone who needs a job and has mouths to feed isn’t getting bad reviews. The whole sector is exploitative and it must be addressed at the root rot. Classes exist. Status exist. Human psychology doesn’t change for some core attitudes. Because humans beings regardless of whether they live in Calcutta or a cave ..in Bay Area or Japan ..we are all status seeking animals. No one is going to go to the top rung and then come back to the bottom rung except to feel smug and experience gratitude for their better status. Of course..someone who spent years and years studying and specializing and working hard is not going to want to food delivery. Their drive and competitiveness comes from the same place in their psyche as the feeling of ‘looking down on delivery jobs’. It comes from the same well of self worth. It’s all connected. So your anger is your problem. The real problem we should all be worried about is the exploitation factor of menial jobs…and the virtue signaling companies who are pulling stunts like this for optics(which begs the question..what are they hiding?).

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

Honestly it might be kinda fun to do something like that once a month. Especially if they're paying you an engineering wage to do it. Not for everyone I guess but I would enjoy it. Personally I would love to embed with my customer teams for a few weeks a year to work on their integration with my product. But in my organization the incentives are not set up that way so it would not be a viable thing for me to do unilaterally.

redisman 5y ago
Yeah it sounds kind of cool. I used to work min wage jobs while in school . Driving a car to pick up some food for $100+/h sounds like a nice break from programming

1270018080 5y ago

Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food.

justinclift 5y ago
Is there a reasonable chance it would help you create better software product(s)?
- 1270018080 5y ago
  Given a 40 hour workweek constraint, the opportunity cost might be negative. I'm sure DoorDash has Design/Product/Research departments who would get more out of doing this anyway.
Melting_Harps 5y ago
> Is it beneath me? I don't know, sure, it doesn't matter. Would I want to do it? No. And that's the main/only reason. I like being a software engineer, I wouldn't like delivering food. Preface: I'm going to assume you are not just proficient at what you do, perhaps even beyond above competent, as a developer (likely calling yourself an engineer when it suits you). But it's this type of hubris that so is prevalent in the FAANG World makes me feel so... aghast at the tech bro/coder World. I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing: be it an app, product or solution. This is why I think tech fails in the Corp World: after a while you get big enough and attract a certain type of worker and foster an environment where entitlement sets in, mission creep lingers and people feel almost ostentatiously incapable of putting themselves in First Person perspective when trying to solve a problem and would rather waste time with focus groups, endless board meetings, online polling or whatever the proper channels are that keep them locked in their ivory tower. This is how you get mediocrity, by being so detached from the experiences and feedback from those you are trying to serve; abstracting your work away as something it's not (I also worked as a developer and consultant) is a fool's errand and I'm sad to say it's a significant part of I walked away from tech--the technology we worked on for years as an opensource project was being re-branded as something it's not, by people who never understood it as a means to stay relevant but ultimately failed to execute despite having first mover advantage, immense backing and support from the Corporate partners eager to try the technology. The way to build a better mouse trap, is to be immersed in mouse trapping. I'm back to tech, I never really left but I just stopped making it how I earned a living to regain sanity as well as passion, and I'm now primarily focused on ML after tracking it for a few years in a specific Industry and I'm starting to see this exact thing happen in that ecosystem now, too. I'm going to focus on the non-sexy projects in the belief that maybe it won't be like that this time because I can't be bothered with this white glove developer syndrome. It's the tech World's version of affluenza.
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > I can't envision a World where someone who sought out to solve a problem would not want to directly put themselves in the position of it's intended target demographic or end user to gain better perspective about how to best optimize what it is they are developing Really? How about in industries where it's straight up impossible for the developer to do so? How do people function in those industries? How does cutting edge tech get made in, say, the medical industry? Are you suggesting that people building machines to perform brain surgery should have to go to med school and specialize as well as becoming an engineer? Or maybe there is a different way to gain insight into what you're building, still build cutting edge solutions to real world problems, without having to actually be able to perform the job you're trying to augment? Here's a question. What would you say to a blind programmer who is working on autonomous driving vehicles? Do you think such a person could never do a good job, because they have no experience driving a vehicle? There are tons of extremely valid reasons why a software developer might not want to or be able to put themselves in their customer's shoes directly, without it being "white glove developer syndrome" as you put it. And they can still be excellent developers.
powerapple 5y ago
It will give valuable insights on the product you are building, I think it is a wonderful idea. Programming is a tool, the goal is to solve a problem, not the code itself (unless you are more academic), I would enjoy it. The thing I hate most is that I do not understand my customers, working in a vacuum.
- ssdspoimdsjvv 5y ago
  I agree that it would be valuable, but the article states they have to do it once per month?? That is overkill.
- throwuxiytayq 5y ago
  The average programmer is already wasting most of their productive brain-time on standups, meetings and jiras. Many of my friends just want to write code but are instead forced to participate in this collective corporate waste of time. I'm sure delivering food is a great pastime, but management isn't going to make any friends among the technical folk.
  - pizza 5y ago
    But your job isn't to write code. It's to improve the product.
    - ttymck 5y ago
      At an organization as large as DoorDash, that simply isn't true for IC engineers. Their job is to implement the product requirements. It might be more sensible to provide the option to do deliveries, to the engineers who are interested. Their voluntary interest in improving the product is a positive sign that they may develop beyond their current role. Edit: I meant to add, as others mentioned, there are other departments who would more benefit from this program. As I suggested above, the product requirements come from a long line of bureaucrats: the product designers and business analysts are primed to make the most of this program.
ALittleLight 5y ago
Some people see themselves as being software engineers. Some people see themselves as trying to deliver a good product. There are circumstances where the most valuable contribution you can make is doing delivery.

tsuujin 5y ago

The comments on that post are deplorable. However, I’ve been working in web development for many years and I have to say I am not surprised. I started my career working in paint stores, then moved to home renovation for low income families. I feel like I have a unique perspective on qualifications and worthiness that have been hard earned. I’m an engineering manager now for a large enterprise company; I worked my way up the ladder one rung at a time. I feel like I’ve earned my position and that I’m good at it. I also feel like basically anyone can do what I do with just a little bit of support and training. The idea that delivery work is beneath a developer is infuriating to me. It shows a lack of respect for an essential part of your business, and a lack of empathy for people who are realistically just not quite as lucky as them. Because that’s the major difference between the classes most of the time, luck and privilege. I don’t know why I felt the need to type this out, it just makes me so angry to see people show such contempt for each other based on trivial bullshit.

Akronymus 5y ago
I personally don't want to do what the cleaning staff does at work. But to me, that just indicates that they do it so that I don't have to, which in turn indicates that I should value them a lot.
jelliclesfarm 5y ago
Sadly no one cares if it’s infuriating to you. Your personal peaks are your own. For someone who got a PhD at age 17, a slow student is infuriating. Imagine if they said…if I can do it, anyone can.. We can’t go about imposing our lives and our life experiences upon others. We can’t expect everyone to ‘be like us’. By that notion, everyone who has an American passport has immense luck and privilege. You are showing a lack of respect to those who came up in life due to grit and hard work. Immigrants who have left home and often circumstances of hard grinding poverty and inequalities in their home countries..to make a prosperous life in a far away shore. It can be borderline trauma or PTSD. What is the point of leaving behind parents and friends and a social circle if it means that they can’t be feted for their hard work and sacrifice? I will tell you what’s more infuriating ..how lazy people who do gigs for ‘the experience’ cutting into a valid income stream for Americans who are uneducated, unskilled and poor. And I am not talking about the employees in the Door Dash gulag. I am talking about the guy who is insulted and throws food at someone’s doorstep and makes a TikTok video of it because this customer didn’t tip him according to expectations. Because anyone who needs a job and has mouths to feed isn’t getting bad reviews. The whole sector is exploitative and it must be addressed at the root rot. Classes exist. Status exist. Human psychology doesn’t change for some core attitudes. Because humans beings regardless of whether they live in Calcutta or a cave ..in Bay Area or Japan ..we are all status seeking animals. No one is going to go to the top rung and then come back to the bottom rung except to feel smug and experience gratitude for their better status. Of course..someone who spent years and years studying and specializing and working hard is not going to want to food delivery. Their drive and competitiveness comes from the same place in their psyche as the feeling of ‘looking down on delivery jobs’. It comes from the same well of self worth. It’s all connected. So your anger is your problem. The real problem we should all be worried about is the exploitation factor of menial jobs…and the virtue signaling companies who are pulling stunts like this for optics(which begs the question..what are they hiding?).