4 ms·

Electricity Is Magnetism

15 points by signa11 5y ago

haxiomic 5y ago
The veritasium video didn’t create a clear picture of what’s going on and you shouldn’t feel bad for feeling more confused after watching it ElectroBOOM has a good response https://youtu.be/iph500cPK28 https://youtu.be/iph500cPK28
binbag 5y ago
Please no, not again. We just did this. 'Electricity is magnetism' is a gross over-simplification derived from Veritasium's over-simplified and idealised parameter trick question. No EE needs to question their teachings. You were not lied to.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Isn't it literally true that electricity, magnetism, light, radio waves and so on are manifestations of the same electromagnetic force? It may not be useful to the everyday end user, like most computer chips only using binary, but still a fundamental truth that has sometimes obscure real world implications, like float rounding?
  - binbag 5y ago
    It is true that those are all inter-related. The premise of his video is that the energy goes across to the bulb at the speed of light without using the circuit. The real answer is there is a very small response at the speed of light because the moment the battery is connected there is effectively an antenna or capacitor set up between the two wires. The light will turn on after the time it takes the energy to pass around the entirety of the circuit. As for the Poynting vector 'demonstrating' that the energy goes straight across rather than being confined to the wires, there is a tiny bit of truth in that, but he fails to say (or to understand) that in reality the field lines running from battery to bulb would be SO ABSOLUTELY MINUTE compared to the very strong field lines confined to the circuit path. So in short, there is a TINY amount of current flow at the speed of light because there is an antenna set up between the wires. It doesn't even matter if the wires are connected at their ends or not - you've built an antenna. But this will NOT turn the light on because the energy received will be extremely small. The light turns on after the energy has travelled the entire length of the circuit, and not before.
    - topspin 5y ago
      > But this will NOT turn the light on because the energy received will be extremely small. It doesn't have to be very small. The pair of wires form a transmission line and if the characteristic impedance of that line is low enough the current will be much higher. You appear to understand that so I'm not telling you anything. But there is still value in proposing this because if one were to perform this experiment with really low Z coax (12 ohm or something) the bulb would instantly light to nearly full brightness, yet the 'mystery' would be dispelled or at least trivial to explain: the instantaneous current is supplied via the distributed LC circuit inherent to the transmission line.
      - gus_massa 5y ago
        > with really low Z coax (12 ohm or something) To get this result, is it necessary that the wires are very close?
        topspin 5y ago
        Yes. They use large center conductors with thin dielectric so the capacitance is high. Here[1] (PDF) is a data sheet on some low Z cables; ~10-26 ohm stuff. https://www.richardsonrfpd.com/Products/Product/TC-12 https://www.richardsonrfpd.com/Products/Product/TC-12
- ahartmetz 5y ago
  According to what I learned in physics, magnetism is, quite literally, just electricity plus relativistic effects - that is pretty cool. Less cool is the idea that electromagnetism and weak nuclear force are "really the same, kind of, at very high energies". It must be known because it's true, but it doesn't make them "the same force" as some say.
  - andi999 5y ago
    Well, electricity plus relativity demands magnetism (current in wire example), but don't forget E^2-B^2 and E dot B are relativistic invariants, so not for every configuration the B field can be explained away with a Lorentz transformation.
contravariant 5y ago
This discussion seems to revolve around Veritasium's video explaining how elecitricty doesn't quite flow inside of power lines. I can't help but feel that "electricity doesn't travel along the wires" is a somewhat unhelpful "well, actually" explanation that kind of misses the point. And you can tell it misses the point because you can't actually carry electricity without free electrons. And at least in part the confusion seems to focus itself around the concept of stray capacitance, which makes it doubly confusing when you illustrate it with circuit diagrams where stray capacitance is deliberately left out. See also ElectroBOOM's rebuttal [1] where he illustrates how the situation can be explained by explicitly drawing in the stray capacitance. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  This guy performed the same experiment using a km long wire and measured the voltage in oscilloscope. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vrhk5OjBP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vrhk5OjBP8
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Yes, and guess what? The bulk of the electricity takes the roundtrip time to start to flow "Oh but what about that tiny bit!" That's capacitance. Sending "electricity" through air is not new, it's called Radio.
hashimotonomora 5y ago
They are related but it’s not
mikewarot 5y ago
We just did this discussion recently - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598860 This video is playing word games, trying to treat an AC phenomenon as if it were DC, which it isn't. Power in a DC circuit ONLY flows in the conductors. Here's a very simple way to tell if the electricity is actually flowing the the wires or not... stretch the wire to the point where the conductor breaks, but the insulation doesn't... current will drop to zero, unless you have enough voltage to cross the gap.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

15 points by signa11 5y ago

The veritasium video didn’t create a clear picture of what’s going on and you shouldn’t feel bad for feeling more confused after watching it ElectroBOOM has a good response https://youtu.be/iph500cPK28 https://youtu.be/iph500cPK28

binbag 5y ago

Please no, not again. We just did this. 'Electricity is magnetism' is a gross over-simplification derived from Veritasium's over-simplified and idealised parameter trick question. No EE needs to question their teachings. You were not lied to.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Isn't it literally true that electricity, magnetism, light, radio waves and so on are manifestations of the same electromagnetic force? It may not be useful to the everyday end user, like most computer chips only using binary, but still a fundamental truth that has sometimes obscure real world implications, like float rounding?
- binbag 5y ago
  It is true that those are all inter-related. The premise of his video is that the energy goes across to the bulb at the speed of light without using the circuit. The real answer is there is a very small response at the speed of light because the moment the battery is connected there is effectively an antenna or capacitor set up between the two wires. The light will turn on after the time it takes the energy to pass around the entirety of the circuit. As for the Poynting vector 'demonstrating' that the energy goes straight across rather than being confined to the wires, there is a tiny bit of truth in that, but he fails to say (or to understand) that in reality the field lines running from battery to bulb would be SO ABSOLUTELY MINUTE compared to the very strong field lines confined to the circuit path. So in short, there is a TINY amount of current flow at the speed of light because there is an antenna set up between the wires. It doesn't even matter if the wires are connected at their ends or not - you've built an antenna. But this will NOT turn the light on because the energy received will be extremely small. The light turns on after the energy has travelled the entire length of the circuit, and not before.
  - topspin 5y ago
    > But this will NOT turn the light on because the energy received will be extremely small. It doesn't have to be very small. The pair of wires form a transmission line and if the characteristic impedance of that line is low enough the current will be much higher. You appear to understand that so I'm not telling you anything. But there is still value in proposing this because if one were to perform this experiment with really low Z coax (12 ohm or something) the bulb would instantly light to nearly full brightness, yet the 'mystery' would be dispelled or at least trivial to explain: the instantaneous current is supplied via the distributed LC circuit inherent to the transmission line.
    - gus_massa 5y ago
      > with really low Z coax (12 ohm or something) To get this result, is it necessary that the wires are very close?
      - topspin 5y ago
        Yes. They use large center conductors with thin dielectric so the capacitance is high. Here[1] (PDF) is a data sheet on some low Z cables; ~10-26 ohm stuff. https://www.richardsonrfpd.com/Products/Product/TC-12 https://www.richardsonrfpd.com/Products/Product/TC-12
ahartmetz 5y ago
According to what I learned in physics, magnetism is, quite literally, just electricity plus relativistic effects - that is pretty cool. Less cool is the idea that electromagnetism and weak nuclear force are "really the same, kind of, at very high energies". It must be known because it's true, but it doesn't make them "the same force" as some say.
- andi999 5y ago
  Well, electricity plus relativity demands magnetism (current in wire example), but don't forget E^2-B^2 and E dot B are relativistic invariants, so not for every configuration the B field can be explained away with a Lorentz transformation.

contravariant 5y ago

This discussion seems to revolve around Veritasium's video explaining how elecitricty doesn't quite flow inside of power lines. I can't help but feel that "electricity doesn't travel along the wires" is a somewhat unhelpful "well, actually" explanation that kind of misses the point. And you can tell it misses the point because you can't actually carry electricity without free electrons. And at least in part the confusion seems to focus itself around the concept of stray capacitance, which makes it doubly confusing when you illustrate it with circuit diagrams where stray capacitance is deliberately left out. See also ElectroBOOM's rebuttal [1] where he illustrates how the situation can be explained by explicitly drawing in the stray capacitance. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iph500cPK28

YetAnotherNick 5y ago
This guy performed the same experiment using a km long wire and measured the voltage in oscilloscope. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vrhk5OjBP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vrhk5OjBP8
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Yes, and guess what? The bulk of the electricity takes the roundtrip time to start to flow "Oh but what about that tiny bit!" That's capacitance. Sending "electricity" through air is not new, it's called Radio.

hashimotonomora 5y ago

They are related but it’s not

mikewarot 5y ago

We just did this discussion recently - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29598860 This video is playing word games, trying to treat an AC phenomenon as if it were DC, which it isn't. Power in a DC circuit ONLY flows in the conductors. Here's a very simple way to tell if the electricity is actually flowing the the wires or not... stretch the wire to the point where the conductor breaks, but the insulation doesn't... current will drop to zero, unless you have enough voltage to cross the gap.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]