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20 year old cars are not anywhere as bad as you say. My 2001 Honda Accord had electronic injection, ABS, air bags, heck it even had power steering! The only ma

20 year old cars are not anywhere as bad as you say. My 2001 Honda Accord had electronic injection, ABS, air bags, heck it even had power steering! The only major safety feature it doesn’t have compared to current cars is side air bags and rear view camera. Calling them death traps is a little much.

makeitdouble 5y ago
There was this discussion a while ago about how ncap changes its test progressively so the bar is raised year after year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.
bootlooped 5y ago
Also vehicle stability assist and automatic emergency braking. I would call those two lifesaving features. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc-continue-to-accrue https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc... Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.
- tpxl 5y ago
  > Lane keeping assist I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
- night862 5y ago
  the ESC (VSC) comes in the next gen of accord, but lots of circa-2000 vehicles have VSC (every make has an acronym) The technoilogy reaches back well into the 1990's. You'll find plenty of safe, well constructed vehicles. VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage. Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff. ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.
  - lttlrck 5y ago
    ESC/AWD has become an essential safety equipment given the amount of (arguably unnecessary) power even economy cars are kicking out now. It is also the enabler...
driverdan 5y ago
My 2002 Focus had side impact airbags so they were around then, just not in every car yet.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mulmen 5y ago
I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval? My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced. Is there even guidance on how often to do that? What's the liability to the manufacturer if an airbag doesn't deploy after 20 years? Is there any?
- to11mtm 5y ago
  > I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval? Well that is very relative, especially in the case of a 2001 Honda Accord that had(/was designed for) Takata ammonium nitrate based airbags. So those have had to have One or more recalls, IDK whether the replacements are 'fixed' or if they still have a service life. Broadly speaking, check the owners manual. Older cars (i.e. 10+ years old) are likely going to be more conservative in estimates the further back you go as the tech was newer. > My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced. I think this is a fear of liability; I think it might? be difficult for non-dealers to get proper-channel replacements. Ironically, the Takata incident only reinforces this mindset, as the potential liability exposure vs perceived competence if something does happen will cause most small shops to avoid them.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    Would a 2001 Accord have had the recall performed? My understanding is that there is a limited time manufacturers take responsibility for recalls, even safety related. I know a guy who bought a 2007 (?) Toyota Tacoma and his frame cracked which was a recall but Toyota will not fix it now.
- numpad0 5y ago
  I recently had a chance to play with a done airbag. For readers’ peace of mind, I found no signs of blood or any severe driver injury, nor tobacco smell, though it did smell spilled soda. There were holes behind the steering, through which you can push a single steel wire clip going around at three points, and the whole horn pad comes off. Behind the pad was a soft steel frame sandwiched between the bag and the inflator by threaded rods from bag side. A thick yellow cable and a ground wire was attached through steering “clockspring”/“spiral cable”. A tab cleverly designed locked it so as to never loosen from vibrations. Ground wire seemed to double as the horn switch wire. The particular inflator I had removed was a charred metal can with a flange that looks a bit like a small sachertorte or a large Korean chocolate pie with dozen 2-3mm(~1/10”) gas holes punched along its circumference. As far as I can see, the thermoplastic horn pad alone seems to be somewhat distribution controlled, but the whole bag with cover and frames is through dealerships for $300-600. There seems to be remarkable cost saving is going on, and there seems to be much less variations, to the wheel, the above-mentioned frame, and the inflator, than for cars and trims and horn pads, looking at internet auctioning websites. Some parts are just the same, it seems. These nitrate or any of explosive charges in common uses generally has expiry date and even shelf lives at temperatures; X months at 100F, Y years at -30C, and so on, but rarely going as long as a decade or longer. Obvious intuition is that total energy must decrease over time, but often their peak pressure of explosion increases dramatically, especially after experiencing high heat and/or vibration. This is what lead to Takata recalls: the peak became so high that the can didn’t hold. With these pieces of knowledges, I think that airbags ideally should be temperature monitored and regularly replaced once per few years. It’s almost trivial to do, at least for driver’s front airbag. It might even be possible for drivers to do. The heavy caveat to it is that replacing all airbags for a car would cost couple grands every year or two per car for tens of millions of cars on the road. That’s difficult.
themitigating 5y ago
Blind spot assist
jjav 5y ago
> and rear view camera Surely has a rear view mirror which does the same thing.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  The point of rearview cameras was so people would stop accidentally running over toddlers who are too short to see out the rear window.

makeitdouble 5y ago

There was this discussion a while ago about how ncap changes its test progressively so the bar is raised year after year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.

bootlooped 5y ago

Also vehicle stability assist and automatic emergency braking. I would call those two lifesaving features. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc-continue-to-accrue https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc... Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.

tpxl 5y ago
> Lane keeping assist I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
night862 5y ago
the ESC (VSC) comes in the next gen of accord, but lots of circa-2000 vehicles have VSC (every make has an acronym) The technoilogy reaches back well into the 1990's. You'll find plenty of safe, well constructed vehicles. VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage. Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff. ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.
- lttlrck 5y ago
  ESC/AWD has become an essential safety equipment given the amount of (arguably unnecessary) power even economy cars are kicking out now. It is also the enabler...

driverdan 5y ago

My 2002 Focus had side impact airbags so they were around then, just not in every car yet.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mulmen 5y ago

I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval? My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced. Is there even guidance on how often to do that? What's the liability to the manufacturer if an airbag doesn't deploy after 20 years? Is there any?

to11mtm 5y ago
> I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval? Well that is very relative, especially in the case of a 2001 Honda Accord that had(/was designed for) Takata ammonium nitrate based airbags. So those have had to have One or more recalls, IDK whether the replacements are 'fixed' or if they still have a service life. Broadly speaking, check the owners manual. Older cars (i.e. 10+ years old) are likely going to be more conservative in estimates the further back you go as the tech was newer. > My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced. I think this is a fear of liability; I think it might? be difficult for non-dealers to get proper-channel replacements. Ironically, the Takata incident only reinforces this mindset, as the potential liability exposure vs perceived competence if something does happen will cause most small shops to avoid them.
- mulmen 5y ago
  Would a 2001 Accord have had the recall performed? My understanding is that there is a limited time manufacturers take responsibility for recalls, even safety related. I know a guy who bought a 2007 (?) Toyota Tacoma and his frame cracked which was a recall but Toyota will not fix it now.
numpad0 5y ago
I recently had a chance to play with a done airbag. For readers’ peace of mind, I found no signs of blood or any severe driver injury, nor tobacco smell, though it did smell spilled soda. There were holes behind the steering, through which you can push a single steel wire clip going around at three points, and the whole horn pad comes off. Behind the pad was a soft steel frame sandwiched between the bag and the inflator by threaded rods from bag side. A thick yellow cable and a ground wire was attached through steering “clockspring”/“spiral cable”. A tab cleverly designed locked it so as to never loosen from vibrations. Ground wire seemed to double as the horn switch wire. The particular inflator I had removed was a charred metal can with a flange that looks a bit like a small sachertorte or a large Korean chocolate pie with dozen 2-3mm(~1/10”) gas holes punched along its circumference. As far as I can see, the thermoplastic horn pad alone seems to be somewhat distribution controlled, but the whole bag with cover and frames is through dealerships for $300-600. There seems to be remarkable cost saving is going on, and there seems to be much less variations, to the wheel, the above-mentioned frame, and the inflator, than for cars and trims and horn pads, looking at internet auctioning websites. Some parts are just the same, it seems. These nitrate or any of explosive charges in common uses generally has expiry date and even shelf lives at temperatures; X months at 100F, Y years at -30C, and so on, but rarely going as long as a decade or longer. Obvious intuition is that total energy must decrease over time, but often their peak pressure of explosion increases dramatically, especially after experiencing high heat and/or vibration. This is what lead to Takata recalls: the peak became so high that the can didn’t hold. With these pieces of knowledges, I think that airbags ideally should be temperature monitored and regularly replaced once per few years. It’s almost trivial to do, at least for driver’s front airbag. It might even be possible for drivers to do. The heavy caveat to it is that replacing all airbags for a car would cost couple grands every year or two per car for tens of millions of cars on the road. That’s difficult.

themitigating 5y ago

Blind spot assist

jjav 5y ago

> and rear view camera Surely has a rear view mirror which does the same thing.

josephcsible 5y ago
The point of rearview cameras was so people would stop accidentally running over toddlers who are too short to see out the rear window.