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My impression is most of the electronic stuff added to cars went for the better (literally lifes saved) Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control,

My impression is most of the electronic stuff added to cars went for the better (literally lifes saved) Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control, tire pressure sensors, near objects detection, backing monitor, automatic climate control etc. The buggy stuff stands out while the careful done part doesn’t get much attention, as usual (and I think it should be so, we’re supposed to use as naturally as possible) PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.

rootsudo 5y ago
"PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. " False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars. Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious. I present to you: Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!) https://toyota.com.ph/wigo https://toyota.com.ph/wigo I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests. -- When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless) So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer. Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)
- User23 5y ago
  Any modern car would just be a cloud of plastic and aluminum dust around a 90's era Volvo in a collision.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    But you'd need to be scraped away from the inner side of the Volvo's windshield.
- tomrod 5y ago
  $14k USD / 700k PHP -- not bad!
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  My point wasn’t that you can’t find 20 years old cars that are better than the worst newer cars (I’d totally imagine 2000’s top of the line Mercedes to be more secure than today’s Lada) If you stay within a category there will be progressive improvements that cumulate enough to be a big difference 20 years after. I also totally agree that some cars don’t need to be built to handle getting crushed by a tank if they’re supposed to be lightweight low speed convenience vehicles. Now those still see enough improvement to be changed after a few decades IMO.
- FDSGSG 5y ago
  >When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards This seems like a super reliable way to purchase a totaled vehicle, no?
  - yuliyp 5y ago
    No, not necessarily. It's a reliable way to purchase a used vehicle. Some of the used vehicles from higher wealth markets end up making their way to other countries.
    - FDSGSG 5y ago
baskethead 5y ago
20 year old cars are not anywhere as bad as you say. My 2001 Honda Accord had electronic injection, ABS, air bags, heck it even had power steering! The only major safety feature it doesn’t have compared to current cars is side air bags and rear view camera. Calling them death traps is a little much.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  There was this discussion a while ago about how ncap changes its test progressively so the bar is raised year after year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.
- bootlooped 5y ago
  Also vehicle stability assist and automatic emergency braking. I would call those two lifesaving features. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc-continue-to-accrue https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc... Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.
  - tpxl 5y ago
    > Lane keeping assist I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
  - night862 5y ago
    the ESC (VSC) comes in the next gen of accord, but lots of circa-2000 vehicles have VSC (every make has an acronym) The technoilogy reaches back well into the 1990's. You'll find plenty of safe, well constructed vehicles. VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage. Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff. ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.
mikecoles 5y ago
Ties pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed? Automatic climate control? Just another overly complicated system that is more expensive to repair. ABS? Learn to brake. Suspension control? More marketing than a useful feature, something else to go fail. Death traps? No.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  While you may do a good job of monitoring your tire pressures most people do not and this has saved many lives. If you are an enthusiast and your car shows you the psi of each tire it is also a handy time saving convenience
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  In our field your answer would be the equivalent of “Memory management ? allocate and free your memory yourself. IDE ? another things that eats memory, use nano. Syntax Highlighting? count your brackets and watch your semi-colons. Static analysis ? validate your code yourself. Memory leaks? No.”
  - bb88 5y ago
    "Unit tests? Unit tests are a crutch for wannabes."
- com2kid 5y ago
  > Tires pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed? So I know when my tire pressure is low? Roads have hazards on them, I'd prefer to know something is causing my tire to slowly leak well before it starts to cause a problem. Also TPMSs aren't critical path tech, if they break down the car still runs fine. > ABS? Learn to brake. Is this a joke? ABS has saved countless lives. In emergency situations higher order thinking goes out the window. ABS is a "do what needs to be done to save my life right now" system. Heck even automatic climate control is pretty damn simple. While I don't prefer using it, a thermostat that turns a heater on or off is not exactly new technology. Setting up a feedback loop to narrow in on "how hot" the heater should be set to for the fan to kept continuously while keeping ambient air at a constant temperature is also quite simple. This is 40-50+ year old tech.
overgard 5y ago
So Ive bought two cars this year, a 2013 Kia and a 2022 Subaru BRZ. On the Kia, the first day I used it the radio just froze up. I had to get a tooth pick to push the hidden reboot button. Every time I start the car the volume on the radio is deafening even though I turned it off at a low volume. It also attempts to download my music off my phone even though Im using spotify. Every time. There are firmware updates... if you have the 2014 model. The worst thing it did is randomly dial 911 when my phone was connected despite absolutely nothing having happened. My BRZ has a more modern setup, that absolutely does not work with apple car play. I had it working for ten minutes and then it just randomly stopped. This is a brand new car and a brand new phone. Also replacement keys are absurdly expensive in order to provide me the benefit of... not turning a key? Its a stick shift so remote start is pointless since someone has to press the clutch in. Im basically better off with the aux port. Yes the internal engine electronics are nice but my experience with anything in the cabin is that it quickly becomes trash. The thing that annoys me is that when I inevitably have to replace these things, Im certain its going to be incredibly overpriced and I will have used like zero of its broken features. The car I used to have, a 2013 FRS... perfect. Very basic stereo. All analog guages. Nothing went wrong ever.
- massysett 5y ago
  I've got a 2016 Honda Accord. The Apple Car Play sometimes freezes up completely and the whole system becomes unresponsive. I wish there were a hidden reset button though - if there is, I haven't found it. The only fix is restarting (rebooting?) the car. Sometimes the whole stereo just freezes up even when I'm not using Car Play, or the FM radio just stops with some Android error message. Generally I find the Bluetooth is more reliable than Car Play so I just use that. I now keep my old iPhone around and tether it to my new iPhone and use the old one for navigation. Unfortunately the car does not have an aux jack, so Bluetooth is the next best thing. I've thought about replacing it but Crutchfield flatly says they don't recommend replacing it at all, which makes sense - the backup camera displays on there and the whole unit has controls on the steering wheel, which I doubt would work with a third-party replacement. If a company that sells car stereos recommends that I don't buy one, I'd be a fool not to listen. I have rented newer cars that have better infotainment systems but they make other changes I'm not crazy about - they now have entertainment information in the main instrument panel, leading them to shrink the speedometer to make space for it. Speed is the most important thing I need to know when driving, so don't shrink the speedometer. So I'm just not convinced a new car will be any better on the whole (and it's hard to get a new car now anyway) so I'll just keep driving this one.
habeebtc 5y ago
My uber driver a couple nights ago had a 2022 Hyundai Sonata. Rear facing cameras so his eyes did not have to go far when he wanted to change lanes (which he did a lot at 90+mph). I could see from the rear seat that his front passenger tire pressure was low by about 5 psi (!!!). I was impressed by the tech package on the vehicle but had all the same concerns: What is this thing going to be like in a few years? Well. I have a 2013 Golf which came with a pretty sweet 2 DIN media head unit. 250 dollars and I have an android replacement head unit which supports all the steering wheel buttons and shows various status info based on a direct connection to the CANBus. Granted: my car is far simpler than a 2022 Sonata. However there is a bustling aftermarket which can future proof your vehicle (somewhat). Assuming the car companies do not manage to lobby congress into outlawing aftermarket parts (and you can bet they would love to).
jjav 5y ago
> PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. That's very exagerated. 20 years is 2001 (2002 models, really). By then you had really good ABS, modern airbags (not the early 90s type), often good traction control, crash structures. Anything added since it's either mostly unnecessary or just asymptotically incremental. 20 years isn't "that long", the useful lifetime of a car is way more than that.

rootsudo 5y ago

"PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. " False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars. Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious. I present to you: Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!) https://toyota.com.ph/wigo https://toyota.com.ph/wigo I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests. -- When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless) So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer. Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)

User23 5y ago
Any modern car would just be a cloud of plastic and aluminum dust around a 90's era Volvo in a collision.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  But you'd need to be scraped away from the inner side of the Volvo's windshield.
tomrod 5y ago
$14k USD / 700k PHP -- not bad!
makeitdouble 5y ago
My point wasn’t that you can’t find 20 years old cars that are better than the worst newer cars (I’d totally imagine 2000’s top of the line Mercedes to be more secure than today’s Lada) If you stay within a category there will be progressive improvements that cumulate enough to be a big difference 20 years after. I also totally agree that some cars don’t need to be built to handle getting crushed by a tank if they’re supposed to be lightweight low speed convenience vehicles. Now those still see enough improvement to be changed after a few decades IMO.
FDSGSG 5y ago
>When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards This seems like a super reliable way to purchase a totaled vehicle, no?
- yuliyp 5y ago
  No, not necessarily. It's a reliable way to purchase a used vehicle. Some of the used vehicles from higher wealth markets end up making their way to other countries.
  - FDSGSG 5y ago

baskethead 5y ago

20 year old cars are not anywhere as bad as you say. My 2001 Honda Accord had electronic injection, ABS, air bags, heck it even had power steering! The only major safety feature it doesn’t have compared to current cars is side air bags and rear view camera. Calling them death traps is a little much.

makeitdouble 5y ago
There was this discussion a while ago about how ncap changes its test progressively so the bar is raised year after year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093 It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.
bootlooped 5y ago
Also vehicle stability assist and automatic emergency braking. I would call those two lifesaving features. https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc-continue-to-accrue https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc... Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.
- tpxl 5y ago
  > Lane keeping assist I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
- night862 5y ago
  the ESC (VSC) comes in the next gen of accord, but lots of circa-2000 vehicles have VSC (every make has an acronym) The technoilogy reaches back well into the 1990's. You'll find plenty of safe, well constructed vehicles. VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage. Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff. ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.

mikecoles 5y ago

Ties pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed? Automatic climate control? Just another overly complicated system that is more expensive to repair. ABS? Learn to brake. Suspension control? More marketing than a useful feature, something else to go fail. Death traps? No.

gameswithgo 5y ago
While you may do a good job of monitoring your tire pressures most people do not and this has saved many lives. If you are an enthusiast and your car shows you the psi of each tire it is also a handy time saving convenience
makeitdouble 5y ago
In our field your answer would be the equivalent of “Memory management ? allocate and free your memory yourself. IDE ? another things that eats memory, use nano. Syntax Highlighting? count your brackets and watch your semi-colons. Static analysis ? validate your code yourself. Memory leaks? No.”
- bb88 5y ago
  "Unit tests? Unit tests are a crutch for wannabes."
com2kid 5y ago
> Tires pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed? So I know when my tire pressure is low? Roads have hazards on them, I'd prefer to know something is causing my tire to slowly leak well before it starts to cause a problem. Also TPMSs aren't critical path tech, if they break down the car still runs fine. > ABS? Learn to brake. Is this a joke? ABS has saved countless lives. In emergency situations higher order thinking goes out the window. ABS is a "do what needs to be done to save my life right now" system. Heck even automatic climate control is pretty damn simple. While I don't prefer using it, a thermostat that turns a heater on or off is not exactly new technology. Setting up a feedback loop to narrow in on "how hot" the heater should be set to for the fan to kept continuously while keeping ambient air at a constant temperature is also quite simple. This is 40-50+ year old tech.

overgard 5y ago

So Ive bought two cars this year, a 2013 Kia and a 2022 Subaru BRZ. On the Kia, the first day I used it the radio just froze up. I had to get a tooth pick to push the hidden reboot button. Every time I start the car the volume on the radio is deafening even though I turned it off at a low volume. It also attempts to download my music off my phone even though Im using spotify. Every time. There are firmware updates... if you have the 2014 model. The worst thing it did is randomly dial 911 when my phone was connected despite absolutely nothing having happened. My BRZ has a more modern setup, that absolutely does not work with apple car play. I had it working for ten minutes and then it just randomly stopped. This is a brand new car and a brand new phone. Also replacement keys are absurdly expensive in order to provide me the benefit of... not turning a key? Its a stick shift so remote start is pointless since someone has to press the clutch in. Im basically better off with the aux port. Yes the internal engine electronics are nice but my experience with anything in the cabin is that it quickly becomes trash. The thing that annoys me is that when I inevitably have to replace these things, Im certain its going to be incredibly overpriced and I will have used like zero of its broken features. The car I used to have, a 2013 FRS... perfect. Very basic stereo. All analog guages. Nothing went wrong ever.

massysett 5y ago
I've got a 2016 Honda Accord. The Apple Car Play sometimes freezes up completely and the whole system becomes unresponsive. I wish there were a hidden reset button though - if there is, I haven't found it. The only fix is restarting (rebooting?) the car. Sometimes the whole stereo just freezes up even when I'm not using Car Play, or the FM radio just stops with some Android error message. Generally I find the Bluetooth is more reliable than Car Play so I just use that. I now keep my old iPhone around and tether it to my new iPhone and use the old one for navigation. Unfortunately the car does not have an aux jack, so Bluetooth is the next best thing. I've thought about replacing it but Crutchfield flatly says they don't recommend replacing it at all, which makes sense - the backup camera displays on there and the whole unit has controls on the steering wheel, which I doubt would work with a third-party replacement. If a company that sells car stereos recommends that I don't buy one, I'd be a fool not to listen. I have rented newer cars that have better infotainment systems but they make other changes I'm not crazy about - they now have entertainment information in the main instrument panel, leading them to shrink the speedometer to make space for it. Speed is the most important thing I need to know when driving, so don't shrink the speedometer. So I'm just not convinced a new car will be any better on the whole (and it's hard to get a new car now anyway) so I'll just keep driving this one.

habeebtc 5y ago

My uber driver a couple nights ago had a 2022 Hyundai Sonata. Rear facing cameras so his eyes did not have to go far when he wanted to change lanes (which he did a lot at 90+mph). I could see from the rear seat that his front passenger tire pressure was low by about 5 psi (!!!). I was impressed by the tech package on the vehicle but had all the same concerns: What is this thing going to be like in a few years? Well. I have a 2013 Golf which came with a pretty sweet 2 DIN media head unit. 250 dollars and I have an android replacement head unit which supports all the steering wheel buttons and shows various status info based on a direct connection to the CANBus. Granted: my car is far simpler than a 2022 Sonata. However there is a bustling aftermarket which can future proof your vehicle (somewhat). Assuming the car companies do not manage to lobby congress into outlawing aftermarket parts (and you can bet they would love to).

jjav 5y ago

> PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. That's very exagerated. 20 years is 2001 (2002 models, really). By then you had really good ABS, modern airbags (not the early 90s type), often good traction control, crash structures. Anything added since it's either mostly unnecessary or just asymptotically incremental. 20 years isn't "that long", the useful lifetime of a car is way more than that.