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>And if the person is not honest, all it will take is for a few people to lose a small amount of money which is simply not worth fighting for, but it is enough

>And if the person is not honest, all it will take is for a few people to lose a small amount of money which is simply not worth fighting for, but it is enough to get those victims to warn others about the scam. I am sorry but I don't consider it a positive that someone can clandestinely scam people out of lots of small amounts of money and the only thing an ordinary customer can do is wait until someone else more knowledgeable notices it and then hope they warn everyone and have enough resources to put together a class action suit or just accept that their money is lost because maybe it was too little to care about. At best, this is no better than the current system when using sketchy non-crypto payment systems; at worst, it's asking customers to shelter all of the risk of the product being a scam. >This includes middlemen and friction. The point here is that to the market operator, it's actually less middlemen and friction than crypto, they operate the currency directly and so there is no fees for them. It seems like you're shifting from the perspective of the market operator to the customer, but that's not what I was discussing, and it's also not true of most cryptocurrency anyway. >You really should, because that would be a huge lesson for you and everyone else that criticizes crypto without taking a look at the actual reality of a lot of people. I don't think it would help because it doesn't explain why the fees would be lower. That's the only question I'm interested in, as far is this hypothetical conversation is concerned. I can pull up a lot of numbers but that's not really giving a full picture. Your description seems to suggest this is illegal in Argentina and you'd be asking your employee to commit a crime, so I suppose that answers my question.

rglullis 5y ago
> clandestinely scam people (...) and then hope they warn everyone and have enough resources to put together a class action suit Do you have any idea of how much money is lost on scams via Western Union? Or how much money companies spend on fraudulent ad views? Insurance fraud? Before you cry "this is whataboutism", the point I am trying to make is that every security/insurance system is designed around a risk/benefit analysis. There are some situations where the cost of having these systems is simply not worth the value of the transaction, so why should we use it? Conversely, should we kill every business opportunity just because the cost of avoiding scammers and ill actors is too high? Do you think that Craigslist should be drowned into a see of ineffective regulations because of all the scammers that are there, or should we try to educate people around the potential pitfalls and let it operate in a more organic form? > The point here is that to the market operator, it's actually less middlemen and friction than crypto Absolutely not. If I want to sell something online and I accept crypto as payment, I can do it without any middlemen. The only "friction" the user faces is to open the wallet (or scanning a qr code) and pressing "send". Gift cards force the user to commit to an initial higher amount and to a specific vendor. It's a whole different league. > I don't think it would help because it doesn't explain why the fees would be lower. Because you'd be bypassing the central bank, and you would be negotiating with other people who are also trading with the rates from the "blue" dollar (the non-official market). Nothing illegal. Kraken (a crypto exchange) operates on Argentina for years already and any "retail" account can trade there. It's just that the volume there is not big enough yet to make the government greedy about it.
- shatteredgate 5y ago
  >Do you have any idea of how much money is lost on scams via Western Union? Or how much money companies spend on fraudulent ad views? Insurance fraud? I'm fully aware, that's why I'm upset that the entire design of crypto seems to be either punting on this problem (to the "social layer" as you said) or is just intentionally making it worse (ransomware). This is not a revolution I can get behind. >There are some situations where the cost of having these systems is simply not worth the value of the transaction, so why should we use it? I mean, this doesn't really give any confidence in the value of your transaction if it's so worthless to even matter. Doesn't this just seem a bit fishy to you? After talking to a lot people, I don't think any self-respecting creator online wants to exist in that space for any longer than they have to because it's rife with scams. It's certainly not making me want to drop any money on micropayments any time soon. >If I want to sell something online and I accept crypto as payment, I can do it without any middlemen. Well this isn't true, the network itself and the miners (or whatever) is still the middleman. With a currency the vendor operates, there is no middleman at all, you control the whole money supply. Yes the customer still has to pay a form of "exchange rates" when taking cash in and out but that's the same thing as crypto. >Gift cards force the user to commit to an initial higher amount and to a specific vendor. It's a whole different league. Again you're changing the discussion to the customer, not the market operator. I don't think this is a reasonable comparison to make because now you're not talking about having a service like Onlyfans any more, you're talking about having entertainers sell directly to customers, which is also a whole different league, probably one that has higher fees because now the creator will likely want to charge more as they now have to offset many other extra costs. >Because you'd be bypassing the central bank, and you would be negotiating with other people who are also trading with the rates from the "blue" dollar (the non-official market). Nothing illegal. Kraken (a crypto exchange) operates on Argentina for years already and any "retail" account can trade there. It's just that the volume there is not big enough yet to make the government greedy about it. I still fail to see what the actual practical benefit of crypto here is if the only situations it's really useful is a place where the government has made low cost international bank transfers illegal and you just have to hope they don't come after crypto even though you know they will eventually. It's essentially being propped up by a central financial authority; isn't that the opposite of what crypto is supposed to be?

rglullis 5y ago

> clandestinely scam people (...) and then hope they warn everyone and have enough resources to put together a class action suit Do you have any idea of how much money is lost on scams via Western Union? Or how much money companies spend on fraudulent ad views? Insurance fraud? Before you cry "this is whataboutism", the point I am trying to make is that every security/insurance system is designed around a risk/benefit analysis. There are some situations where the cost of having these systems is simply not worth the value of the transaction, so why should we use it? Conversely, should we kill every business opportunity just because the cost of avoiding scammers and ill actors is too high? Do you think that Craigslist should be drowned into a see of ineffective regulations because of all the scammers that are there, or should we try to educate people around the potential pitfalls and let it operate in a more organic form? > The point here is that to the market operator, it's actually less middlemen and friction than crypto Absolutely not. If I want to sell something online and I accept crypto as payment, I can do it without any middlemen. The only "friction" the user faces is to open the wallet (or scanning a qr code) and pressing "send". Gift cards force the user to commit to an initial higher amount and to a specific vendor. It's a whole different league. > I don't think it would help because it doesn't explain why the fees would be lower. Because you'd be bypassing the central bank, and you would be negotiating with other people who are also trading with the rates from the "blue" dollar (the non-official market). Nothing illegal. Kraken (a crypto exchange) operates on Argentina for years already and any "retail" account can trade there. It's just that the volume there is not big enough yet to make the government greedy about it.

shatteredgate 5y ago
>Do you have any idea of how much money is lost on scams via Western Union? Or how much money companies spend on fraudulent ad views? Insurance fraud? I'm fully aware, that's why I'm upset that the entire design of crypto seems to be either punting on this problem (to the "social layer" as you said) or is just intentionally making it worse (ransomware). This is not a revolution I can get behind. >There are some situations where the cost of having these systems is simply not worth the value of the transaction, so why should we use it? I mean, this doesn't really give any confidence in the value of your transaction if it's so worthless to even matter. Doesn't this just seem a bit fishy to you? After talking to a lot people, I don't think any self-respecting creator online wants to exist in that space for any longer than they have to because it's rife with scams. It's certainly not making me want to drop any money on micropayments any time soon. >If I want to sell something online and I accept crypto as payment, I can do it without any middlemen. Well this isn't true, the network itself and the miners (or whatever) is still the middleman. With a currency the vendor operates, there is no middleman at all, you control the whole money supply. Yes the customer still has to pay a form of "exchange rates" when taking cash in and out but that's the same thing as crypto. >Gift cards force the user to commit to an initial higher amount and to a specific vendor. It's a whole different league. Again you're changing the discussion to the customer, not the market operator. I don't think this is a reasonable comparison to make because now you're not talking about having a service like Onlyfans any more, you're talking about having entertainers sell directly to customers, which is also a whole different league, probably one that has higher fees because now the creator will likely want to charge more as they now have to offset many other extra costs. >Because you'd be bypassing the central bank, and you would be negotiating with other people who are also trading with the rates from the "blue" dollar (the non-official market). Nothing illegal. Kraken (a crypto exchange) operates on Argentina for years already and any "retail" account can trade there. It's just that the volume there is not big enough yet to make the government greedy about it. I still fail to see what the actual practical benefit of crypto here is if the only situations it's really useful is a place where the government has made low cost international bank transfers illegal and you just have to hope they don't come after crypto even though you know they will eventually. It's essentially being propped up by a central financial authority; isn't that the opposite of what crypto is supposed to be?