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Doesn’t the entire NFT market rely on trusting that the company you bought your “certified original one of a kind URL pointing to the image they host” doesn’t c

by jakear 5y ago

Doesn’t the entire NFT market rely on trusting that the company you bought your “certified original one of a kind URL pointing to the image they host” doesn’t cease to exist?

rglullis 5y ago
No. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29609617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29609617
- acdha 5y ago
  The correct answer is yes. You're still paying to host the content even if you add new ways to pay to update a shortlink. ENS has to point somewhere and that someone will want to be paid for their time and resources.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    No. ENS records are on the blockchain. Once you executed the contract that gives you ownership to a name, it will be yours for the time you paid it for. The ENS developers can not revoke it and they can not change the underlying records or subdomains.
    - acdha 5y ago
      Still yes: ENS records are a pointer, not the data itself. You will need to pay to host that data and you will need to pay every time you change the ENS pointer.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        Depending on the amount of data (and your willingness to pay to have it on the blockchain) you can put it on the blockchain directly just fine. Some of these "art" NFTs can perfectly be simple base64 encoded PNGs or SVGs and wouldn't cost too much to have them stored directly. But forget about this case... even if "you are not storing the data directly with ENS". So what?! Do I get to host my website with my DNS server? Do I get free email service with my MX records? The whole thing I was talking about with ENS is that it is a decentralized way to get an identity online, not to have a free website. I am failing to see your point.
        lottin 5y ago
        It doesn't matter whether the data is stored on a blockchain or elsewhere. Storing data is costly and storing it on a blockchain is even more costly. Someone has to pay for the cost or it won't be stored.
        rglullis 5y ago
        Yes, and again... so what? My argument from the beginning (and from the comment I linked) is that NFTs are not about storing data. The NFT "market" is not just about storing JPEGs at specific urls. Using Bored Apes (or any "digital art" project) as an argument against the "whole" of NFT is just a strawman. That is my point.
        acdha 5y ago
        > So what? Do I get to host my website with my DNS server? I am failing to see your point. You responded to someone who was talking about “certified original one of a kind URL pointing to the image they host”. In that case, you are dependent on them continuing to exist or exiting gracefully (i.e. do their contracts allow you to change the target?). If you mirror it in time, you can of course pay to update it to point somewhere else but it again highlights that all of this infrastructure is very expensively duplicating an existing decentralized system but worse performance and reliability than the web.
        rglullis 5y ago
        No. I responded that NFTs are not just about "digital art in specific URLs". DId you read the comment I linked to before or did you just want to "well, actually" me and argue a strawman?
        acdha 5y ago
        I did, which is why I corrected the part which was wrong in the described scenario.
        5y ago
shiohime 5y ago
NFTs are simply single issue tokens that can optionally be part of a collection. While most NFTs today take the form of a link to decentralized storage on solutions such as IPFS or Arweave, it is completely possible for an NFT to provide value as a token. For example you can have a project where NFTs provide access to services, as well as optionally have links to art. But you really don't need to have the art aspect at all, you can use them as access tokens or whatever you want really.
- jakear 5y ago
  So it’s either an expensive way to claim ownership of a resource provided other people are trusted to do the actual work of hosting that resource, or it’s an expensive way to replace JWT’s. Exciting. Truly.
  - shiohime 5y ago
    NFTs are only expensive on Ethereum. You can mint for cents or less on other chains.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      Expensive on Ethereum's base layer. Don't forget the many layer-2 solutions. Loopring is about to launch its marketplace, ImmutableX is already live as well.
      - shiohime 5y ago
        Yes, thanks for the clarification.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Your cheap jab says more about your lack of imagination about potential use-cases than about whatever shortcomings the technology has at the moment. Okta is a multi-billion business and could also be characterized as "an expensive way to replace JWTs". Authz/authn is one of the most common use cases that every application developer needs to implement. How much would you like to bet that in 5 years time NFT-based authn/authz will be bigger than Okta's market?
tshaddox 5y ago
I’m not at all an expert, but I’m pretty sure the answer is no? Aren’t a lot of these NFTs some simple fixed-size collection of random vectors that when run through a generative art algorithm generates a unique variation of an avatar image?

by jakear 5y ago

Doesn’t the entire NFT market rely on trusting that the company you bought your “certified original one of a kind URL pointing to the image they host” doesn’t cease to exist?

rglullis 5y ago

No. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29609617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29609617

acdha 5y ago
The correct answer is yes. You're still paying to host the content even if you add new ways to pay to update a shortlink. ENS has to point somewhere and that someone will want to be paid for their time and resources.
- rglullis 5y ago
  No. ENS records are on the blockchain. Once you executed the contract that gives you ownership to a name, it will be yours for the time you paid it for. The ENS developers can not revoke it and they can not change the underlying records or subdomains.
  - acdha 5y ago
    Still yes: ENS records are a pointer, not the data itself. You will need to pay to host that data and you will need to pay every time you change the ENS pointer.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      Depending on the amount of data (and your willingness to pay to have it on the blockchain) you can put it on the blockchain directly just fine. Some of these "art" NFTs can perfectly be simple base64 encoded PNGs or SVGs and wouldn't cost too much to have them stored directly. But forget about this case... even if "you are not storing the data directly with ENS". So what?! Do I get to host my website with my DNS server? Do I get free email service with my MX records? The whole thing I was talking about with ENS is that it is a decentralized way to get an identity online, not to have a free website. I am failing to see your point.
      - lottin 5y ago
        It doesn't matter whether the data is stored on a blockchain or elsewhere. Storing data is costly and storing it on a blockchain is even more costly. Someone has to pay for the cost or it won't be stored.
        rglullis 5y ago
        Yes, and again... so what? My argument from the beginning (and from the comment I linked) is that NFTs are not about storing data. The NFT "market" is not just about storing JPEGs at specific urls. Using Bored Apes (or any "digital art" project) as an argument against the "whole" of NFT is just a strawman. That is my point.
      - acdha 5y ago
        > So what? Do I get to host my website with my DNS server? I am failing to see your point. You responded to someone who was talking about “certified original one of a kind URL pointing to the image they host”. In that case, you are dependent on them continuing to exist or exiting gracefully (i.e. do their contracts allow you to change the target?). If you mirror it in time, you can of course pay to update it to point somewhere else but it again highlights that all of this infrastructure is very expensively duplicating an existing decentralized system but worse performance and reliability than the web.
        rglullis 5y ago
        No. I responded that NFTs are not just about "digital art in specific URLs". DId you read the comment I linked to before or did you just want to "well, actually" me and argue a strawman?
        acdha 5y ago
        I did, which is why I corrected the part which was wrong in the described scenario.
        5y ago

shiohime 5y ago

NFTs are simply single issue tokens that can optionally be part of a collection. While most NFTs today take the form of a link to decentralized storage on solutions such as IPFS or Arweave, it is completely possible for an NFT to provide value as a token. For example you can have a project where NFTs provide access to services, as well as optionally have links to art. But you really don't need to have the art aspect at all, you can use them as access tokens or whatever you want really.

jakear 5y ago
So it’s either an expensive way to claim ownership of a resource provided other people are trusted to do the actual work of hosting that resource, or it’s an expensive way to replace JWT’s. Exciting. Truly.
- shiohime 5y ago
  NFTs are only expensive on Ethereum. You can mint for cents or less on other chains.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Expensive on Ethereum's base layer. Don't forget the many layer-2 solutions. Loopring is about to launch its marketplace, ImmutableX is already live as well.
    - shiohime 5y ago
      Yes, thanks for the clarification.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Your cheap jab says more about your lack of imagination about potential use-cases than about whatever shortcomings the technology has at the moment. Okta is a multi-billion business and could also be characterized as "an expensive way to replace JWTs". Authz/authn is one of the most common use cases that every application developer needs to implement. How much would you like to bet that in 5 years time NFT-based authn/authz will be bigger than Okta's market?

tshaddox 5y ago

I’m not at all an expert, but I’m pretty sure the answer is no? Aren’t a lot of these NFTs some simple fixed-size collection of random vectors that when run through a generative art algorithm generates a unique variation of an avatar image?