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The thing I don’t get about NFTs in general is that they don’t actually seem trustless to me. You need some sort of trusted source that says “this NFT is genuin

by 542458 5y ago

The thing I don’t get about NFTs in general is that they don’t actually seem trustless to me. You need some sort of trusted source that says “this NFT is genuine and not just a bootleg”… and at that point you might as well just have that trusted source track ownership.

basch 5y ago
The authors name next to the creation? The source of trust is the authors signature, and societies consensus that the author is who they say they are.
- Qworg 5y ago
  The thousands of stolen artworks from DeviantArt being turned into NFTs beg to differ.
  - eropple 5y ago
    The kicker that amazes me is that when artists register their incredulity and their offense about this (and OpenSea seems to tacitly be A-OK with the whole practice), the randos pile into their mentions asking why they won't work with the people misappropriating their work in this way. Can't imagine why not. Can't at all. Nope.
  - basch 5y ago
    The author of the hyperlink, not the photo. The NFT is the hyperlink, not what it links to.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Ah yes, they're not scammers masquerading as the artist, they're authors of genuine artisanal hyperlinks, flawlessly typed with the same hands they lovingly Ctrl/C Ctrl/Vd the image to the handcrafted hyperlink endpoint.
      - basch 5y ago
        Youre conflating the technology with its misuse. The point of the NFT technology is to keep record of who a notary was. "So and so said this link is authentic, per their own definition of authentic." Whether that notary is important is for humans to decide. A counterfeiter can be the notary, and if people believe in them, then they create some value. Just as some art counterfeits have their own intrinsic value for whatever reason.
lekevicius 5y ago
It’s a problem, I agree, but because the “authenticity information” can be expressed somewhat succinctly (it’s just a smart contract address), the trust element can be decentralized. Artist might post it on their Twitter, Instagram and website — if they all agree, and you as a buyer trust that the author is actually managing their Instagram, Twitter and website — then there might be enough to create real world - digital world trust bridge. This is particularly easy if an artist is working primarily online and their digital identity already is the main contributor to their fame.
timdaub 5y ago
e.g. that's why famous nft artists either have their ENS name in their Twitter bio or as their name. With that, you know that e.g. if shaq.eth minted an NFT, it's indeed the real shaq o'neal as otherwise the imposter shaq.eth registrar would have had to have the access to the real shaq o'neal's Twitter account.
- codebje 5y ago
  Doesn't that make Twitter the central authority providing the trust framework required for it to work?
  - timdaub 5y ago
    no because similar to PGP keys it really doesn't matter where you publish your fingerprint or how you connect your identities. If shaq had a popular website, he could do it there too. E.g. I have my PGP fingerprint on my website: https://timdaub.github.io https://timdaub.github.io
    - acdha 5y ago
      In other words, your trust is anchored by Twitter or GitHub. I have to gauge that the key I got was uploaded by you rather than someone else and the thing building that trust is by linking it to an identity established on those services. PGP had the same problem: the web of trust didn’t scale well outside of existing communities – and where people signed keys for strangers, they also relied on trusted third parties (driver’s license, student ID, etc.) to establish that.
judge2020 5y ago
NFTs are trusting a single authority, which is the consensus of all of the nodes/miners of the blockchain. Sure, if you go to opensea and try to find the owner of a NFT, they could lie and become an accomplice in a double-spend scheme; but in general you could also download and watch the entire transaction chain and search through it locally (with trusted and auditable OSS) to verify ownership and transfers.
- acdha 5y ago
  > NFTs are trusting a single authority, which is the consensus of all of the nodes/miners of the blockchain. That's only for the in-chain history. To actually be able to trust that the NFT is what it's represented as, you also need outside third-parties. For example, many artists are having to deal with NFTs fraudulently claiming to represent their work or benefit the artist, which is not something you can validate using only information on the blockchain. Once you have a way to confirm the authenticity of the NFT, you also don't need the blockchain because the actual trust is coming from the artist's own statement.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Well yes, but the technology behind NFTs is explicitly just for solving the problem of double-spend/duplication. The authenticity is always provided off-chain since identity and reputation is still managed off-chain, so while "is this NFT real or impersonating an existing contract" is off-chain, the "who is currently owner" question is answered on-chain and requires no further trust or approval of the original artist.
    - acdha 5y ago
      But again only for the NFT, not the actual work of art.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        Assuming the artist only makes one copy, then it does constitute ownership of the work of art. You might not have copyright over it - an artists selling a painting today doesn't give up copyright (unless they sign it away at sale) - but you effectively own the work of art as if it were a painting. In either situation, you're hoping the original artist doesn't go and recreate it to sell it again.
shiohime 5y ago
But you can determine NFT authenticity by only examining onchain data. You can for instance check the program ID that executed the mint and that it is verified (in the case of Solana, at least), it's a pretty simple verification system that is using entirely onchain data for validation.

by 542458 5y ago

basch 5y ago

The authors name next to the creation? The source of trust is the authors signature, and societies consensus that the author is who they say they are.

Qworg 5y ago
The thousands of stolen artworks from DeviantArt being turned into NFTs beg to differ.
- eropple 5y ago
  The kicker that amazes me is that when artists register their incredulity and their offense about this (and OpenSea seems to tacitly be A-OK with the whole practice), the randos pile into their mentions asking why they won't work with the people misappropriating their work in this way. Can't imagine why not. Can't at all. Nope.
- basch 5y ago
  The author of the hyperlink, not the photo. The NFT is the hyperlink, not what it links to.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    Ah yes, they're not scammers masquerading as the artist, they're authors of genuine artisanal hyperlinks, flawlessly typed with the same hands they lovingly Ctrl/C Ctrl/Vd the image to the handcrafted hyperlink endpoint.
    - basch 5y ago
      Youre conflating the technology with its misuse. The point of the NFT technology is to keep record of who a notary was. "So and so said this link is authentic, per their own definition of authentic." Whether that notary is important is for humans to decide. A counterfeiter can be the notary, and if people believe in them, then they create some value. Just as some art counterfeits have their own intrinsic value for whatever reason.

lekevicius 5y ago

It’s a problem, I agree, but because the “authenticity information” can be expressed somewhat succinctly (it’s just a smart contract address), the trust element can be decentralized. Artist might post it on their Twitter, Instagram and website — if they all agree, and you as a buyer trust that the author is actually managing their Instagram, Twitter and website — then there might be enough to create real world - digital world trust bridge. This is particularly easy if an artist is working primarily online and their digital identity already is the main contributor to their fame.

timdaub 5y ago

e.g. that's why famous nft artists either have their ENS name in their Twitter bio or as their name. With that, you know that e.g. if shaq.eth minted an NFT, it's indeed the real shaq o'neal as otherwise the imposter shaq.eth registrar would have had to have the access to the real shaq o'neal's Twitter account.

codebje 5y ago
Doesn't that make Twitter the central authority providing the trust framework required for it to work?
- timdaub 5y ago
  no because similar to PGP keys it really doesn't matter where you publish your fingerprint or how you connect your identities. If shaq had a popular website, he could do it there too. E.g. I have my PGP fingerprint on my website: https://timdaub.github.io https://timdaub.github.io
  - acdha 5y ago
    In other words, your trust is anchored by Twitter or GitHub. I have to gauge that the key I got was uploaded by you rather than someone else and the thing building that trust is by linking it to an identity established on those services. PGP had the same problem: the web of trust didn’t scale well outside of existing communities – and where people signed keys for strangers, they also relied on trusted third parties (driver’s license, student ID, etc.) to establish that.

judge2020 5y ago

NFTs are trusting a single authority, which is the consensus of all of the nodes/miners of the blockchain. Sure, if you go to opensea and try to find the owner of a NFT, they could lie and become an accomplice in a double-spend scheme; but in general you could also download and watch the entire transaction chain and search through it locally (with trusted and auditable OSS) to verify ownership and transfers.

acdha 5y ago
> NFTs are trusting a single authority, which is the consensus of all of the nodes/miners of the blockchain. That's only for the in-chain history. To actually be able to trust that the NFT is what it's represented as, you also need outside third-parties. For example, many artists are having to deal with NFTs fraudulently claiming to represent their work or benefit the artist, which is not something you can validate using only information on the blockchain. Once you have a way to confirm the authenticity of the NFT, you also don't need the blockchain because the actual trust is coming from the artist's own statement.
- judge2020 5y ago
  Well yes, but the technology behind NFTs is explicitly just for solving the problem of double-spend/duplication. The authenticity is always provided off-chain since identity and reputation is still managed off-chain, so while "is this NFT real or impersonating an existing contract" is off-chain, the "who is currently owner" question is answered on-chain and requires no further trust or approval of the original artist.
  - acdha 5y ago
    But again only for the NFT, not the actual work of art.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Assuming the artist only makes one copy, then it does constitute ownership of the work of art. You might not have copyright over it - an artists selling a painting today doesn't give up copyright (unless they sign it away at sale) - but you effectively own the work of art as if it were a painting. In either situation, you're hoping the original artist doesn't go and recreate it to sell it again.

shiohime 5y ago

But you can determine NFT authenticity by only examining onchain data. You can for instance check the program ID that executed the mint and that it is verified (in the case of Solana, at least), it's a pretty simple verification system that is using entirely onchain data for validation.