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I don't mean this personally towards her, and I'm not defending apple's weirdness, but I've always been confused by the mindset of employees that choose to beco

I don't mean this personally towards her, and I'm not defending apple's weirdness, but I've always been confused by the mindset of employees that choose to become internal activists against management rather than, you know, just leave. Like I get it for governmental jobs like schools where there might not be an alternative without moving, but for tech jobs why not just go to a company that shares the same values as you? I say this because short of unionizing and creating collective bargaining, I've never seen this kind of thing work out positively for the person that does it.

eurasiantiger 5y ago
Likewise, those people are flabbergasted at how people like you can just stand by and watch others get run over.
- overgard 5y ago
  Well, I guess we all have to pick our battles, we can't be 100% in on every cause unless we invent more hours in the day.
voakbasda 5y ago
You cannot leave the Apple ecosystem. It is everywhere in culture. Their tech influences everything and everyone, probably with no more than one or two degrees of separation. Apple needs to change. Every FAANG/MANGA corporation needs to change. Management and shareholders will never do what is right, only what is profitable. You think customers have a chance of changing anything? Employee activism may be the best chance for meaningful change.
- varelse 5y ago
  I exist outside its ecosystem and refuse to use any of its components. But then I build my own machines from parts and that apparently has somehow become a lost art. Customers have all the power and they are not choosing to exercise it. They are the only ones who can make those companies change. As long as they remain junkies, this continues unabated. Not holding my breath here.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  > You cannot leave the Apple ecosystem 35 years in tech, IT and development and I never used an Apple device. Including in two huge, international tech companies at very senior positions. I love new technologies and have nothing againt Apple, just never needed to use them. So much for that prison you are talking about.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    None of your friends use Apple products? Never have any issues with data interchange with Apple devices? That was my point about degrees of separation. You are influenced by their tech whether you use it or not.
    - karmakaze 5y ago
      No. Some younger folk might look down upon 'green bubbles', but I just don't care. What kind of 'data interchange' is common: AirDrop? I can't really think of anything that Apple does well for data sharing. It's not like the days of MS Word, and Apple didn't matter then either.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
      No, they use Android. Professionally it is Android or Apple, data is exchanged through cloud or similar services. My team in probably 90% use apple, but this does not change anything in terms of exchange which is completely independent on the device. Did you have any problems writing your comment? HN is not apple, though. You probably also send emails or read web pages. No Apple there either.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- nightski 5y ago
  It's pretty easy to leave the Apple ecosystem. Haven't touched anything Apple myself for over a decade now.
- sakopov 5y ago
  > Every FAANG/MANGA corporation needs to change. It's very difficult to argue this point when employees are very well compensated for the perceived misery of being employed at these companies.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Other than a hand-me-down gen 2 iPod, I've literally never owned any Apple devices
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Tech companies have a really weird culture, and it seems to entail employees identifying closely with their employer. A big part of it is that "bring your whole self to work" thing, the tendency for extended hours, and all of the additional amenities and on-site extracurriculars that tend to be offered: Employees end up having a very significant work-social circle, and a near non-existent non-work social circle. (This goes so far as that I'd say I see a larger portion of married couples having met at their employer, and both working there, an additional layer on top as well.) People leaving a FAANG isn't significantly different than people extricating themselves from a cult, and most of the same reasons people tend not to apply. If you quit a Big Tech company, you are probably leaving all of your friends behind at the same time, and you'll need to find a new gym and massage place too. If your whole life is the company, leaving the company is very, very scary.
invalidname 5y ago
The problem is that the company claims one thing to investors and the public. Yet practices a different thing. If all employees left investors and the public would be mislead.
officeplant 5y ago
A lot of times it seems to come from people remembering the past nature of the company or the outward PR that company presents. Apple especially with their Think Different motto and general presentation as a forward thinking and accepting company (omg rainbow watchbands I feel so represented). Like Google's original "don't be evil" culture and those remaining at google that still wish to promote that stance. The tech space in general also has a lot of progressive minded folks. Mix all of this together and you will find those fighting the existing systems more and more.
igneo676 5y ago
It's an ethical question: Is my leaving proportional to the wrong done? For minor infractions, it's probably not worth becoming an activist. For instance, if I'm not being paid proportional to the market or my boss is creating a difficult culture, it's probably just time to pack up and leave. I might not even bother offering any real feedback on the way out. For more major ones, an example from the article was preventing an employee from talking about wages, I'm going to continue doing exactly that AND look for my out. I'm also going to talk to my fellow employees about their legal rights and how this isn't right. Bonus, if I'm fired before I can find a job, I'm probably going to talk to a lawyer at bare minimum Anything above that, I would argue you've drifted into becoming part of the problem. And the fact that you've "never seen this kind of thing work out positively for the person that does it" is part of that system that perpetuates the kind of toxic workplace you've seen. It sucks, but you've been called to fight against a giant and hopefully the worst that happens to you is you get fired. Best case, perhaps the rarest, you're part of the resistance that brings down something truly toxic Because I actively look to join companies that share my values and leave when things get even slightly dicey, I've not had to go beyond minor infractions. But if I'm ever faced with something truly bad, I hope that I have the courage to stand even when others do not. Edit: It also helps if you work for small companies and know the whole stack of management above you For larger companies, knowing a few levels above you and whether or not they'd stand for shenanigans is useful too. Ideally your manager will be frank about the state of things and willing to fall on the sword for important issues Finally, if you're a manager, you're an extension of the company and any toxic things they inflict on people below you in the hierarchy. "Minor infractions" should be fought, and you're complicit if anything worse happens. You should be willing to be fired rather than enforce anything unethical on your employees. Otherwise you simply shouldn't be a manager.
- overgard 5y ago
  For the most part I've worked for relatively small companies where management was fairly accessible. In that context, if I made a case that management didn't agree with, there would be no point in me creating a struggle -- I'd have to either accept the reality or leave. It's admittedly different if you're in a FAANG and you have to create negative press to get the CEO to pay attention, but IMO it usually ends up with a lot of effort to get management to take a step back on a single issue, and at that point your career prospects at that place are toast and your favors are used up. To be clear, I admire whistleblowers who call out true ethical breaches. I just think fighting with management on things like salary transparency which aren't urgent issues is a waste of time. If they're not paying you what you think you're worth go find a better gig.
dillondoyle 5y ago
because 'change from the inside' is a legitimate and often more successful approach to political/social activism. You're probably right in that it's much harder to change a behemoth. But we've seen recently the power of employee activism. Google & china search, twitter during the election, climate strike, reddit for a few things didn't they hire and then fire a known abuser?, Google AI ethics saga (though maybe I shouldn't put that Im not sure that's a success lol, is that conservative lady still there?). I'm sure there's a bunch more but that's just off the top of my head and maybe some aren't the best examples but other commenters I'm sure can chime in with better ones. And of course it's more complicated. Can argue corporations would do some of this on their own simply for marketing reasons.
turminal 5y ago
People always doing the easier thing is precisely why this industry is so broken.
- overgard 5y ago
  I'm not suggesting doing the easier thing, I'm suggesting that picking fights you can't win is a bad proposition, especially when alternatives exist.
t8e56vd4ih 5y ago
how do you know some other company is any better? so just switching jobs maybe works, maybe doesn't.
ajb 5y ago
There are two parts to this. The first part is, if something is wrong at your employer, should you try to negotiate, or leave? The thing to realise is that conditions at an employer are already the result of negotiation, even if it isn't overt, and even if it happened before you joined. Leaving is an inefficient way of communicating your preferences, and many things are too minor to bother, or too minor at the margin to bother leaving, but you would be lobster-boiled if you let them slide. Also, to be brutal about it, top managers and CEOS are there because they are good at taking advantage. If they see an opportunity to take advantage of their employees, they do. So you are in a negotiation with them, like it or not. The second part is, should you declare yourself an activist? I think this is more questionable. It is not necessary to follow the patterns of activism to push back against problematic decisions. You may well be better off making it clear that you consider a particular issue unacceptable, and making the employer aware that the consensus among employees is that it is unacceptable, while making it clear that apart from that, you are a loyal and trustworthy employee. Activism sets up a narrative in which you are their adversary.
- overgard 5y ago
  Here's the thing with the FAANGs though, they hire like crazy. Like my resume is fine but it's not super impressive and I get recruitment emails non stop. If an issue like salary transparency was important to me (it's not), I could easily just tell the recruiter "I'd love to work for your company but this particular issue gets in the way". If a lot of people did that Im pretty sure word would get back to decision makers. To me though, taking a job where I know the company does something I dislike, and then grandstanding about it is in a much weirder moral territory.

eurasiantiger 5y ago

Likewise, those people are flabbergasted at how people like you can just stand by and watch others get run over.

overgard 5y ago
Well, I guess we all have to pick our battles, we can't be 100% in on every cause unless we invent more hours in the day.

voakbasda 5y ago

You cannot leave the Apple ecosystem. It is everywhere in culture. Their tech influences everything and everyone, probably with no more than one or two degrees of separation. Apple needs to change. Every FAANG/MANGA corporation needs to change. Management and shareholders will never do what is right, only what is profitable. You think customers have a chance of changing anything? Employee activism may be the best chance for meaningful change.

varelse 5y ago
I exist outside its ecosystem and refuse to use any of its components. But then I build my own machines from parts and that apparently has somehow become a lost art. Customers have all the power and they are not choosing to exercise it. They are the only ones who can make those companies change. As long as they remain junkies, this continues unabated. Not holding my breath here.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
> You cannot leave the Apple ecosystem 35 years in tech, IT and development and I never used an Apple device. Including in two huge, international tech companies at very senior positions. I love new technologies and have nothing againt Apple, just never needed to use them. So much for that prison you are talking about.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  None of your friends use Apple products? Never have any issues with data interchange with Apple devices? That was my point about degrees of separation. You are influenced by their tech whether you use it or not.
  - karmakaze 5y ago
    No. Some younger folk might look down upon 'green bubbles', but I just don't care. What kind of 'data interchange' is common: AirDrop? I can't really think of anything that Apple does well for data sharing. It's not like the days of MS Word, and Apple didn't matter then either.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    No, they use Android. Professionally it is Android or Apple, data is exchanged through cloud or similar services. My team in probably 90% use apple, but this does not change anything in terms of exchange which is completely independent on the device. Did you have any problems writing your comment? HN is not apple, though. You probably also send emails or read web pages. No Apple there either.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
nightski 5y ago
It's pretty easy to leave the Apple ecosystem. Haven't touched anything Apple myself for over a decade now.
sakopov 5y ago
> Every FAANG/MANGA corporation needs to change. It's very difficult to argue this point when employees are very well compensated for the perceived misery of being employed at these companies.
HideousKojima 5y ago
Other than a hand-me-down gen 2 iPod, I've literally never owned any Apple devices

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Tech companies have a really weird culture, and it seems to entail employees identifying closely with their employer. A big part of it is that "bring your whole self to work" thing, the tendency for extended hours, and all of the additional amenities and on-site extracurriculars that tend to be offered: Employees end up having a very significant work-social circle, and a near non-existent non-work social circle. (This goes so far as that I'd say I see a larger portion of married couples having met at their employer, and both working there, an additional layer on top as well.) People leaving a FAANG isn't significantly different than people extricating themselves from a cult, and most of the same reasons people tend not to apply. If you quit a Big Tech company, you are probably leaving all of your friends behind at the same time, and you'll need to find a new gym and massage place too. If your whole life is the company, leaving the company is very, very scary.

invalidname 5y ago

The problem is that the company claims one thing to investors and the public. Yet practices a different thing. If all employees left investors and the public would be mislead.

officeplant 5y ago

A lot of times it seems to come from people remembering the past nature of the company or the outward PR that company presents. Apple especially with their Think Different motto and general presentation as a forward thinking and accepting company (omg rainbow watchbands I feel so represented). Like Google's original "don't be evil" culture and those remaining at google that still wish to promote that stance. The tech space in general also has a lot of progressive minded folks. Mix all of this together and you will find those fighting the existing systems more and more.

igneo676 5y ago

It's an ethical question: Is my leaving proportional to the wrong done? For minor infractions, it's probably not worth becoming an activist. For instance, if I'm not being paid proportional to the market or my boss is creating a difficult culture, it's probably just time to pack up and leave. I might not even bother offering any real feedback on the way out. For more major ones, an example from the article was preventing an employee from talking about wages, I'm going to continue doing exactly that AND look for my out. I'm also going to talk to my fellow employees about their legal rights and how this isn't right. Bonus, if I'm fired before I can find a job, I'm probably going to talk to a lawyer at bare minimum Anything above that, I would argue you've drifted into becoming part of the problem. And the fact that you've "never seen this kind of thing work out positively for the person that does it" is part of that system that perpetuates the kind of toxic workplace you've seen. It sucks, but you've been called to fight against a giant and hopefully the worst that happens to you is you get fired. Best case, perhaps the rarest, you're part of the resistance that brings down something truly toxic Because I actively look to join companies that share my values and leave when things get even slightly dicey, I've not had to go beyond minor infractions. But if I'm ever faced with something truly bad, I hope that I have the courage to stand even when others do not. Edit: It also helps if you work for small companies and know the whole stack of management above you For larger companies, knowing a few levels above you and whether or not they'd stand for shenanigans is useful too. Ideally your manager will be frank about the state of things and willing to fall on the sword for important issues Finally, if you're a manager, you're an extension of the company and any toxic things they inflict on people below you in the hierarchy. "Minor infractions" should be fought, and you're complicit if anything worse happens. You should be willing to be fired rather than enforce anything unethical on your employees. Otherwise you simply shouldn't be a manager.

overgard 5y ago
For the most part I've worked for relatively small companies where management was fairly accessible. In that context, if I made a case that management didn't agree with, there would be no point in me creating a struggle -- I'd have to either accept the reality or leave. It's admittedly different if you're in a FAANG and you have to create negative press to get the CEO to pay attention, but IMO it usually ends up with a lot of effort to get management to take a step back on a single issue, and at that point your career prospects at that place are toast and your favors are used up. To be clear, I admire whistleblowers who call out true ethical breaches. I just think fighting with management on things like salary transparency which aren't urgent issues is a waste of time. If they're not paying you what you think you're worth go find a better gig.

dillondoyle 5y ago

because 'change from the inside' is a legitimate and often more successful approach to political/social activism. You're probably right in that it's much harder to change a behemoth. But we've seen recently the power of employee activism. Google & china search, twitter during the election, climate strike, reddit for a few things didn't they hire and then fire a known abuser?, Google AI ethics saga (though maybe I shouldn't put that Im not sure that's a success lol, is that conservative lady still there?). I'm sure there's a bunch more but that's just off the top of my head and maybe some aren't the best examples but other commenters I'm sure can chime in with better ones. And of course it's more complicated. Can argue corporations would do some of this on their own simply for marketing reasons.

turminal 5y ago

People always doing the easier thing is precisely why this industry is so broken.

overgard 5y ago
I'm not suggesting doing the easier thing, I'm suggesting that picking fights you can't win is a bad proposition, especially when alternatives exist.

t8e56vd4ih 5y ago

how do you know some other company is any better? so just switching jobs maybe works, maybe doesn't.

ajb 5y ago

There are two parts to this. The first part is, if something is wrong at your employer, should you try to negotiate, or leave? The thing to realise is that conditions at an employer are already the result of negotiation, even if it isn't overt, and even if it happened before you joined. Leaving is an inefficient way of communicating your preferences, and many things are too minor to bother, or too minor at the margin to bother leaving, but you would be lobster-boiled if you let them slide. Also, to be brutal about it, top managers and CEOS are there because they are good at taking advantage. If they see an opportunity to take advantage of their employees, they do. So you are in a negotiation with them, like it or not. The second part is, should you declare yourself an activist? I think this is more questionable. It is not necessary to follow the patterns of activism to push back against problematic decisions. You may well be better off making it clear that you consider a particular issue unacceptable, and making the employer aware that the consensus among employees is that it is unacceptable, while making it clear that apart from that, you are a loyal and trustworthy employee. Activism sets up a narrative in which you are their adversary.

overgard 5y ago
Here's the thing with the FAANGs though, they hire like crazy. Like my resume is fine but it's not super impressive and I get recruitment emails non stop. If an issue like salary transparency was important to me (it's not), I could easily just tell the recruiter "I'd love to work for your company but this particular issue gets in the way". If a lot of people did that Im pretty sure word would get back to decision makers. To me though, taking a job where I know the company does something I dislike, and then grandstanding about it is in a much weirder moral territory.