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https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 "For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup inc

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 "For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple." The key to iMessage backup is stored in iCloud for convenience for the end-user. The password has to be stored somewhere. Other e2e messengers usually don't have message backup or have only manual message backup where you are responsible for not loosing the key. Apple is not able to access iMessage if you don't enable iCloud backup for iMessage.

ubercore 5y ago
It's too bad they allow this loophole, since it gives people a false impression. Even turning off icloud backup, the other half of the conversation could be using it still.
- gruez 5y ago
  >It's too bad they allow this loophole 1. the "loophole" is a trade-off between usability and security. Making icloud backups end-to-end-encrypted (ie. you manage the keys) would be more secure, but would a usability nighmare. People are terrible at storing/remembering keys. It's very probable that by the time someone needs a backup, they would have forgotten/lost it, making their backups useless 2. is it really an issue that apple "allows" the loophole? Ultimately you need to trust your conversation partner. Even if icloud backups wasn't a thing, there's a dozen other ways your conversation can be compromised by your partner eg. them taking a screenshot, them leaving their phones unlocked, them snitching on you.
howinteresting 5y ago
Apple and the FBI are able to access your iMessages to a contact X if either you or X have iCloud backups turned on. This is an important detail which means that simply turning off iCloud backups yourself is insufficient.
brigade 5y ago
More precisely, "Messages in iCloud" is orthogonal to "iCloud Backup". If you only enable "Messages in iCloud" but disable "iCloud Backup" then according to that the messages will be stored in the cloud but still be E2E encrypted with a key that's not readable by Apple. If you disable "Messages in iCloud" but enable "iCloud Backup", then messages will be included directly in the backup, no separate key needed. If both are enabled, then messages are in a different cloud "bucket" than the backup but now will be readable with a key stored in the backup. So it's "iCloud Backup" specifically that needs to be disabled; simply disabling the Messages switch under iCloud doesn't affect this case.

ubercore 5y ago

It's too bad they allow this loophole, since it gives people a false impression. Even turning off icloud backup, the other half of the conversation could be using it still.

gruez 5y ago
>It's too bad they allow this loophole 1. the "loophole" is a trade-off between usability and security. Making icloud backups end-to-end-encrypted (ie. you manage the keys) would be more secure, but would a usability nighmare. People are terrible at storing/remembering keys. It's very probable that by the time someone needs a backup, they would have forgotten/lost it, making their backups useless 2. is it really an issue that apple "allows" the loophole? Ultimately you need to trust your conversation partner. Even if icloud backups wasn't a thing, there's a dozen other ways your conversation can be compromised by your partner eg. them taking a screenshot, them leaving their phones unlocked, them snitching on you.

howinteresting 5y ago

Apple and the FBI are able to access your iMessages to a contact X if either you or X have iCloud backups turned on. This is an important detail which means that simply turning off iCloud backups yourself is insufficient.

brigade 5y ago

More precisely, "Messages in iCloud" is orthogonal to "iCloud Backup". If you only enable "Messages in iCloud" but disable "iCloud Backup" then according to that the messages will be stored in the cloud but still be E2E encrypted with a key that's not readable by Apple. If you disable "Messages in iCloud" but enable "iCloud Backup", then messages will be included directly in the backup, no separate key needed. If both are enabled, then messages are in a different cloud "bucket" than the backup but now will be readable with a key stored in the backup. So it's "iCloud Backup" specifically that needs to be disabled; simply disabling the Messages switch under iCloud doesn't affect this case.