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We have no moral obligation to support someone’s business model. If someone’s business model relies on people being too ignorant of either the consequences of a

We have no moral obligation to support someone’s business model. If someone’s business model relies on people being too ignorant of either the consequences of ad-tech surveillance systems, or of the technical means to avoid that surveillance, and that turns out to be a bad bet, then they can pivot to a different monetization strategy that doesn’t involve people passively allowing themselves to be constantly subjected to sophisticated ML-model driven targeted and personalized psychological manipulation.

endisneigh 5y ago
What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? I don’t understand your view - if you don’t want to be tracked (speaking strictly about the services in the GitHub) why not just not use them? If they provide so much value such that you still want to use them why shouldn’t they receive compensation in the form of tracking, ads or money directly?
- vngzs 5y ago
  Collecting and sharing massive sets of data on people has a societal cost when that data leaks and is used to target individuals with identity theft. Stalkers abuse these datasets to find and attack their targets. Data breaches are especially common in the ad-tech, marketing, and sales industries because they are largely unregulated and exist to collect data on millions of people at scale. Not all users of anonymity services are people who have a choice in the matter. And if you're not currently a victim of stalking or identity theft, why invite attacks by openly sharing personal information? It's a personal risk calculus, and everyone's needs are different. - 622 million leaked email addresses, employers, geographic locations, job titles, names, phone numbers, & social media profiles from PDL [0]. According to the PDL website, the purpose of this data was for PDL clients to "supercharge [their] software with over 3 billion profiles. Tap into the resume, contact, social, and demographic information for over 3 billion unique individuals, delivered to you at the scale you need it." - 125 million leaked email addresses and 9 billion data points on users from Apollo [1]. Dataset includes email addresses, employers, geographic locations, job titles, names, phone numbers, salutations, & social media profiles. [0]: https://www.troyhunt.com/data-enrichment-people-data-labs-and-another-622m-email-addresses/ https://www.troyhunt.com/data-enrichment-people-data-labs-an... [2] https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-breach-linkedin-salesforce-data/ https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-breach-linkedin-salesforc...
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Talking about leaks without the benefits of centralization seems disingenuous. Besides spam what’s the actual harm from a leaked email?
    - Thiez 5y ago
      Suppose you collect visitor data, and then leak it (accidental or otherwise), and users have their identity stolen and lose a lot of time/money dealing with the fallout. Would you agree that as a site owner who collected this data without securing it properly that you are morally obligated (and ought to be legally obligated) to fully compensate all the damage caused by the leak?
- rebeccaskinner 5y ago
  > What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? My views on this are a bit deeper than I can easily cover in a single comment that I’m writing on my phone, but the question reminds me that I need to publish a talk I gave last year on the subject. The short version is that the development of recommendation systems, both for targeting ads and for generating engagement loops for users so that you can show more ads, have some chilling second and third order social effects. The algorithmic bubbles that come from social media are a well known problem, as are the privacy implications of data breaches associated with these systems. Even outside of actual systems being compromised, these systems are open to side channel attacks that can both allow data collection and influence on the sorts of content people see. In short, the system isn’t complex and open to abuse, and the incentives built in are not aligned with building a healthy society. As for not using the services- there’s no simple satisfying answer here. You can cut out a lot of things, but ultimately it’s nearly impossible for an individual to completely opt out of a bad decision the rest of society has collectively made, and so we need to find ways to mitigate the damage where we can.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? The consequences are that I am forced to share information I'd prefer not to share. If there's a requirement that I do so, I will choose not to use resources that require it. But it's not my responsibility, nor is it feasible, to for me to choose, before I am aware of such a requirement, not to connect to a resource. Don't want folks like me who block ads/trackers on your site? I have no issue or complaint about that. It is, after all, your site. There are tools you can use to keep me from viewing your content. That's your choice and your responsibility. Not mine. Don't frame ad/tracker blocking as "theft." That's not even close to the truth.

endisneigh 5y ago

What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? I don’t understand your view - if you don’t want to be tracked (speaking strictly about the services in the GitHub) why not just not use them? If they provide so much value such that you still want to use them why shouldn’t they receive compensation in the form of tracking, ads or money directly?

vngzs 5y ago
Collecting and sharing massive sets of data on people has a societal cost when that data leaks and is used to target individuals with identity theft. Stalkers abuse these datasets to find and attack their targets. Data breaches are especially common in the ad-tech, marketing, and sales industries because they are largely unregulated and exist to collect data on millions of people at scale. Not all users of anonymity services are people who have a choice in the matter. And if you're not currently a victim of stalking or identity theft, why invite attacks by openly sharing personal information? It's a personal risk calculus, and everyone's needs are different. - 622 million leaked email addresses, employers, geographic locations, job titles, names, phone numbers, & social media profiles from PDL [0]. According to the PDL website, the purpose of this data was for PDL clients to "supercharge [their] software with over 3 billion profiles. Tap into the resume, contact, social, and demographic information for over 3 billion unique individuals, delivered to you at the scale you need it." - 125 million leaked email addresses and 9 billion data points on users from Apollo [1]. Dataset includes email addresses, employers, geographic locations, job titles, names, phone numbers, salutations, & social media profiles. [0]: https://www.troyhunt.com/data-enrichment-people-data-labs-and-another-622m-email-addresses/ https://www.troyhunt.com/data-enrichment-people-data-labs-an... [2] https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-breach-linkedin-salesforce-data/ https://www.wired.com/story/apollo-breach-linkedin-salesforc...
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Talking about leaks without the benefits of centralization seems disingenuous. Besides spam what’s the actual harm from a leaked email?
  - Thiez 5y ago
    Suppose you collect visitor data, and then leak it (accidental or otherwise), and users have their identity stolen and lose a lot of time/money dealing with the fallout. Would you agree that as a site owner who collected this data without securing it properly that you are morally obligated (and ought to be legally obligated) to fully compensate all the damage caused by the leak?
rebeccaskinner 5y ago
> What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? My views on this are a bit deeper than I can easily cover in a single comment that I’m writing on my phone, but the question reminds me that I need to publish a talk I gave last year on the subject. The short version is that the development of recommendation systems, both for targeting ads and for generating engagement loops for users so that you can show more ads, have some chilling second and third order social effects. The algorithmic bubbles that come from social media are a well known problem, as are the privacy implications of data breaches associated with these systems. Even outside of actual systems being compromised, these systems are open to side channel attacks that can both allow data collection and influence on the sorts of content people see. In short, the system isn’t complex and open to abuse, and the incentives built in are not aligned with building a healthy society. As for not using the services- there’s no simple satisfying answer here. You can cut out a lot of things, but ultimately it’s nearly impossible for an individual to completely opt out of a bad decision the rest of society has collectively made, and so we need to find ways to mitigate the damage where we can.
nobody9999 5y ago
>What are the consequences of ad-tech surveillance in practice? The consequences are that I am forced to share information I'd prefer not to share. If there's a requirement that I do so, I will choose not to use resources that require it. But it's not my responsibility, nor is it feasible, to for me to choose, before I am aware of such a requirement, not to connect to a resource. Don't want folks like me who block ads/trackers on your site? I have no issue or complaint about that. It is, after all, your site. There are tools you can use to keep me from viewing your content. That's your choice and your responsibility. Not mine. Don't frame ad/tracker blocking as "theft." That's not even close to the truth.