5 ms·

I think you’re absolutely right here. I’ve noticed that there’s already an analogous concept to “toxic masculinity” for women, which is “internalized misogyny”.

I think you’re absolutely right here. I’ve noticed that there’s already an analogous concept to “toxic masculinity” for women, which is “internalized misogyny”. An example of internalized misogyny is when women believe they have to be rail-thin to be properly feminine or attractive. I’ve never understood why this isn’t called toxic femininity. If society’s standards of femininity cause women to become anorexic, that standard of femininity is clearly toxic. Just like how a standard of masculinity that causes men to take steroids and damage their bodies would rightly be considered toxic by everyone. I think the reason is that there’s a kind of cat-coupling. When you say “I visited the famous golden gate bridge”, you don’t mean “among all the golden gate bridges, I visited the one that was famous”. You mean “I visited the golden gate bridge, and by the way the golden gate bridge is famous”. When you say “toxic masculinity” even if you mean “the subset of masculinity which is toxic”, it’s possible to interpret that as “masculinity, and by the way masculinity is toxic”. Feminist academics, being mostly female, have no emotional response to the idea that saying all masculinity is toxic, so the possible misinterpretation doesn’t bother them. But they might have a response to someone saying all femininity is toxic, so they wisely chose a term that was less likely to be misinterpreted (“internalized misogyny”). More diversity in their field would have prevented them from making the same mistake w.r.t. toxic masculinity.

mc32 5y ago
> there’s already an analogous concept to “toxic masculinity” for women, which is “internalized misogyny” Perhaps it would then also be helpful to use toxic misandry instead of toxic masculinity because as you mention people can take it to mean that men by nature are toxic.
- anchpop 5y ago
  I agree, toxic misandry or internalized misandry would be much clearer.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Perhaps it would then also be helpful to use toxic misandry instead of toxic masculinity Toxic masculinity isn't misandry, so, no, it wouldn't be helpful. Both toxic masculinity and internalized misogyny are aspects of partriarchal socialization; they aren't symmetrical with regard to sex or gender.
  - anchpop 5y ago
    Toxic masculinity seems straightforwardly like misandry to me. Someone saying "you're not a real woman unless you're skinny" would obviously be considered misogynistic, so someone saying "you're not a real man unless you're muscular" seems straightforwardly misandristic.
idiotsecant 5y ago
>I’ve never understood why this isn’t called toxic femininity. Because language itself is also subject to societal bias - it's turtles all the way down. Men are by default the transgressor - they are actively aggressive and when good things happen to men it's because they went out and fought for it and got it done and when bad things happen to or because of a man it's because of a flaw in the man, a failure to actively improve ones self. These are both not true pictures of reality, of course, but the man is always the one depicted with the active tense, for better and worse. Women are by default the passive transgressee - when something bad happens to a woman it's often because they are the victim of a system or person that was stronger than them - they could hardly be expected to do otherwise. Similarly when something good happens it's often lucky, thanks to the support system of the people around them, or even worse painted as an 'inspirational' exception that is novel only for it's improbability. The truth is somewhere in there, but with all the layers of human abstraction on top of it it's hard to prise it apart, but one thing is for sure - our language informs how we think in a very concrete way.

mc32 5y ago

> there’s already an analogous concept to “toxic masculinity” for women, which is “internalized misogyny” Perhaps it would then also be helpful to use toxic misandry instead of toxic masculinity because as you mention people can take it to mean that men by nature are toxic.

anchpop 5y ago
I agree, toxic misandry or internalized misandry would be much clearer.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Perhaps it would then also be helpful to use toxic misandry instead of toxic masculinity Toxic masculinity isn't misandry, so, no, it wouldn't be helpful. Both toxic masculinity and internalized misogyny are aspects of partriarchal socialization; they aren't symmetrical with regard to sex or gender.
- anchpop 5y ago
  Toxic masculinity seems straightforwardly like misandry to me. Someone saying "you're not a real woman unless you're skinny" would obviously be considered misogynistic, so someone saying "you're not a real man unless you're muscular" seems straightforwardly misandristic.

idiotsecant 5y ago

>I’ve never understood why this isn’t called toxic femininity. Because language itself is also subject to societal bias - it's turtles all the way down. Men are by default the transgressor - they are actively aggressive and when good things happen to men it's because they went out and fought for it and got it done and when bad things happen to or because of a man it's because of a flaw in the man, a failure to actively improve ones self. These are both not true pictures of reality, of course, but the man is always the one depicted with the active tense, for better and worse. Women are by default the passive transgressee - when something bad happens to a woman it's often because they are the victim of a system or person that was stronger than them - they could hardly be expected to do otherwise. Similarly when something good happens it's often lucky, thanks to the support system of the people around them, or even worse painted as an 'inspirational' exception that is novel only for it's improbability. The truth is somewhere in there, but with all the layers of human abstraction on top of it it's hard to prise it apart, but one thing is for sure - our language informs how we think in a very concrete way.