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As cool as a native code back-end for Bitwarden would be I would be more interested in seeing vendor native mobile apps (Swift/Xcode, Kotlin/Android Studio) and

by mikece 5y ago

As cool as a native code back-end for Bitwarden would be I would be more interested in seeing vendor native mobile apps (Swift/Xcode, Kotlin/Android Studio) and putting the Xamarin code out to pasture. Would also like to see an improvement in the desktop Electron app as well or at least get it to feature parity with the web vault. All of that said Bitwarden is a fantastic product and I recommend that over every other server-based password manager out there.

darksaints 5y ago
The bitwarden mobile apps are using Xamarin? That's actually pretty impressive...I've never had any of the weird issues with the bitwarden app that I've had with other Xamarin apps in the past. The desktop app looks and feels like an electron app, so I'm far less impressed by it. At the very least it would be nice to have it in Qt or something like that.
- mikece 5y ago
  Bitwarden Mobile: https://github.com/bitwarden/mobile https://github.com/bitwarden/mobile I will freely admit I am strongly biased against Xamarin as there are so few cases where I think it's unequivocally the right choice, and Bitwarden isn't one of them. It would make more sense to take the work done in their desktop electron app and use that as part of an Ionic hybrid mobile app than to screw around with the layercake of bugs and mismatched APIs that Xamarin is. Moreover, since this is a serious app from a security point of view it really should go full vendor native IMO.
  - iandinwoodie 5y ago
    Do you know of any open source mobile apps that are full vendor native for iOS and Android? I'd really like to peruse some examples of that.
    - mikece 5y ago
      I've been delving more into Podcast clients and on Graphene OS (Android) I really like AntennaPod: https://github.com/AntennaPod/AntennaPod https://github.com/AntennaPod/AntennaPod On iOS I pretty much stick with Castamatic and Overcast, both are full native iOS apps but neither are open source. I'm sure there's something listed at http://www.NewPodcastApps.com http://www.NewPodcastApps.com which is iOS and full Xcode native. UPDATE: 21 Open source apps written in Swift (including one I use every day: Firefox for iOS): https://medium.mybridge.co/21-amazing-open-source-ios-apps-written-in-swift-5e835afee98e https://medium.mybridge.co/21-amazing-open-source-ios-apps-w...
    - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
      From a cursory look it seems that OsmAnd [1] and Signal [2] are native for both platforms. Signal Desktop looks like it's Electron-based, though. [1] popular OpenStreetMap client, https://github.com/osmandapp/ https://github.com/osmandapp/ [2] popular messaging app among privacy advocates, https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "desktop electron app and use that as part of an Ionic hybrid mobile app" Whatever you think of Xamarin, there is a special place in hell for all the buggy JS based mobile software. Its not an improvement, just a different flavour of crap.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    > desktop electron app > Moreover, since this is a serious app from a security point of view it really should go full vendor native IMO. hmm
- rvz 5y ago
  > The desktop app looks and feels like an electron app, so I'm far less impressed by it. That is because it IS an Electron app. > At the very least it would be nice to have it in Qt or something like that. Sure, I hope so too. Unfortunately there are very few serious alternative password managers that are not using Electron for the desktop app these days. Seems like 1Password is on the way out too.
  - _jal 5y ago
    Yeah, it is kind of amazing how quickly 1pw went to hell. It was a great app at one time. Then they forced cloud storage, subscriptions, Electron... it is like they decided to start acting like a private capital sunsetting cash extractor.
  - cycomanic 5y ago
    keepassxc is Qt based and a serious alternative. I've been using it for >3 years and have only good things to say about it.
- fomine3 5y ago
  I've never noticed the app is made by Xamarin. Quite impressive app.
jabart 5y ago
Why move away from Xamarin? It works. Reduces development needs. Xamarin iOS uses Ahead-of-Time compile which is pretty close to native at that point. Phones are fast enough now to handle a little extra UI layer code like I'm sure Swift and Kotlin have. Most end-users don't even know what Xamarin is.
- gkop 5y ago
  Bitwarden on iOS suffers from high latency user interaction, it’s much less usable than the iOS native keychain for this reason. I assumed the bottleneck is the public API for password managers, but maybe part of it is Xamarin?
fri_sch 5y ago
> All of that said Bitwarden is a fantastic product and I recommend that over every other server-based password manager out there. Do you want to share what makes you think Bitwarden is superior to other selfhosted, open-source solutions (e. g. Passbolt, Passwork, Psono)?
- seized 5y ago
  So far, Bitwarden has an Android app (two of those didn't), has been security audited (I didn't see anything for those other ones), and the biggest thing is Bitwarden has a much better pricing structure around non business users. It has a free tier and plans for families/non business users, as well as business use. Those others had nothing comparable that I could see except for a limited free tier. Feature wise (ignoring the mobile apps), some of those seem to have some comparable features like emergency access, sharing, folders, etc, but locked behind a pricing structure that makes them less useful. So from a look at those other ones, Bitwarden is the superior product for non business/security conscious family use at least. And for business use I don't see how those other ones are better anyway.
  - fri_sch 5y ago
    I admit Bitwarden is probably the most advanced, but the alternatives I named above (Psono, Passbolt, Passwork) seem not that far behind and some of your research seems a bit superficial. > Bitwarden has an Android app (two of those didn't) That's just wrong. All three of the alternatives I mentioned have an Android app. I haven't used any of them, though. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.psono.psono https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.psono.pson... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passwork.passwork_sh https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passwork.p... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passbolt.mobile.android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passbolt.m... > has been security audited (I didn't see anything for those other ones) A quick search turns up at least some auditing activity: Passbolt: https://www.passbolt.com/incidents https://www.passbolt.com/incidents Psono: https://doc.psono.com/admin/asvs/overview.html https://doc.psono.com/admin/asvs/overview.html (self-audit) Looking more closely at Passwork, they claim to have open/auditable source code, but I can't find any public code. So they are out of the game anyway. > Bitwarden has a much better pricing structure around non business users. It has a free tier and plans for families/non business users, as well as business use. Those others had nothing comparable that I could see except for a limited free tier. Psono's full-featured enterprise version is free for anyone with up to 10 users. I don't see any such generous offer at Bitwarden or elsewhere. And both, Psono and Passbolt offer unlimited business tiers for only 3€ per user per month which seems to be in the range of what Bitwarden costs. I don't really see your argument for the pricing.

by mikece 5y ago

darksaints 5y ago

The bitwarden mobile apps are using Xamarin? That's actually pretty impressive...I've never had any of the weird issues with the bitwarden app that I've had with other Xamarin apps in the past. The desktop app looks and feels like an electron app, so I'm far less impressed by it. At the very least it would be nice to have it in Qt or something like that.

mikece 5y ago
Bitwarden Mobile: https://github.com/bitwarden/mobile https://github.com/bitwarden/mobile I will freely admit I am strongly biased against Xamarin as there are so few cases where I think it's unequivocally the right choice, and Bitwarden isn't one of them. It would make more sense to take the work done in their desktop electron app and use that as part of an Ionic hybrid mobile app than to screw around with the layercake of bugs and mismatched APIs that Xamarin is. Moreover, since this is a serious app from a security point of view it really should go full vendor native IMO.
- iandinwoodie 5y ago
  Do you know of any open source mobile apps that are full vendor native for iOS and Android? I'd really like to peruse some examples of that.
  - mikece 5y ago
    I've been delving more into Podcast clients and on Graphene OS (Android) I really like AntennaPod: https://github.com/AntennaPod/AntennaPod https://github.com/AntennaPod/AntennaPod On iOS I pretty much stick with Castamatic and Overcast, both are full native iOS apps but neither are open source. I'm sure there's something listed at http://www.NewPodcastApps.com http://www.NewPodcastApps.com which is iOS and full Xcode native. UPDATE: 21 Open source apps written in Swift (including one I use every day: Firefox for iOS): https://medium.mybridge.co/21-amazing-open-source-ios-apps-written-in-swift-5e835afee98e https://medium.mybridge.co/21-amazing-open-source-ios-apps-w...
  - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
    From a cursory look it seems that OsmAnd [1] and Signal [2] are native for both platforms. Signal Desktop looks like it's Electron-based, though. [1] popular OpenStreetMap client, https://github.com/osmandapp/ https://github.com/osmandapp/ [2] popular messaging app among privacy advocates, https://github.com/signalapp https://github.com/signalapp
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "desktop electron app and use that as part of an Ionic hybrid mobile app" Whatever you think of Xamarin, there is a special place in hell for all the buggy JS based mobile software. Its not an improvement, just a different flavour of crap.
- fomine3 5y ago
  > desktop electron app > Moreover, since this is a serious app from a security point of view it really should go full vendor native IMO. hmm
rvz 5y ago
> The desktop app looks and feels like an electron app, so I'm far less impressed by it. That is because it IS an Electron app. > At the very least it would be nice to have it in Qt or something like that. Sure, I hope so too. Unfortunately there are very few serious alternative password managers that are not using Electron for the desktop app these days. Seems like 1Password is on the way out too.
- _jal 5y ago
  Yeah, it is kind of amazing how quickly 1pw went to hell. It was a great app at one time. Then they forced cloud storage, subscriptions, Electron... it is like they decided to start acting like a private capital sunsetting cash extractor.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  keepassxc is Qt based and a serious alternative. I've been using it for >3 years and have only good things to say about it.
fomine3 5y ago
I've never noticed the app is made by Xamarin. Quite impressive app.

jabart 5y ago

Why move away from Xamarin? It works. Reduces development needs. Xamarin iOS uses Ahead-of-Time compile which is pretty close to native at that point. Phones are fast enough now to handle a little extra UI layer code like I'm sure Swift and Kotlin have. Most end-users don't even know what Xamarin is.

gkop 5y ago
Bitwarden on iOS suffers from high latency user interaction, it’s much less usable than the iOS native keychain for this reason. I assumed the bottleneck is the public API for password managers, but maybe part of it is Xamarin?

fri_sch 5y ago

> All of that said Bitwarden is a fantastic product and I recommend that over every other server-based password manager out there. Do you want to share what makes you think Bitwarden is superior to other selfhosted, open-source solutions (e. g. Passbolt, Passwork, Psono)?

seized 5y ago
So far, Bitwarden has an Android app (two of those didn't), has been security audited (I didn't see anything for those other ones), and the biggest thing is Bitwarden has a much better pricing structure around non business users. It has a free tier and plans for families/non business users, as well as business use. Those others had nothing comparable that I could see except for a limited free tier. Feature wise (ignoring the mobile apps), some of those seem to have some comparable features like emergency access, sharing, folders, etc, but locked behind a pricing structure that makes them less useful. So from a look at those other ones, Bitwarden is the superior product for non business/security conscious family use at least. And for business use I don't see how those other ones are better anyway.
- fri_sch 5y ago
  I admit Bitwarden is probably the most advanced, but the alternatives I named above (Psono, Passbolt, Passwork) seem not that far behind and some of your research seems a bit superficial. > Bitwarden has an Android app (two of those didn't) That's just wrong. All three of the alternatives I mentioned have an Android app. I haven't used any of them, though. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.psono.psono https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.psono.pson... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passwork.passwork_sh https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passwork.p... https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passbolt.mobile.android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.passbolt.m... > has been security audited (I didn't see anything for those other ones) A quick search turns up at least some auditing activity: Passbolt: https://www.passbolt.com/incidents https://www.passbolt.com/incidents Psono: https://doc.psono.com/admin/asvs/overview.html https://doc.psono.com/admin/asvs/overview.html (self-audit) Looking more closely at Passwork, they claim to have open/auditable source code, but I can't find any public code. So they are out of the game anyway. > Bitwarden has a much better pricing structure around non business users. It has a free tier and plans for families/non business users, as well as business use. Those others had nothing comparable that I could see except for a limited free tier. Psono's full-featured enterprise version is free for anyone with up to 10 users. I don't see any such generous offer at Bitwarden or elsewhere. And both, Psono and Passbolt offer unlimited business tiers for only 3€ per user per month which seems to be in the range of what Bitwarden costs. I don't really see your argument for the pricing.