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>China Its not totally fair to put this all on Chinese manipulation. Western politicians and many "tech elite" all love the concept of CCP-style 'social credi

by _red 5y ago

>China Its not totally fair to put this all on Chinese manipulation. Western politicians and many "tech elite" all love the concept of CCP-style 'social credit systems' being instituted. This is ultimately what vaxpass is all about.

nix23 5y ago
- _red 5y ago
  - scoopertrooper 5y ago
    Enjoy the ICU.
    - dang 5y ago
      Breaking the site guidelines like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: fortunately you don't seem to be in the habit of it (that's good).
- zivkovicp 5y ago
  How so? Even if the intent of such programs might be positive, is there not a risk of them being used to limit, coerce, or change user behaviour? (it wouldn't be the first time) Why is this such an offensive statement?
  - pc86 5y ago
    Social credit is offensive and freedom-limiting by definition. You can't make any small-d-democratic argument in favor of a massive central social credit system because the two are antithetical. A vaccine passport system could turn into something similar, but that's not necessarily a given. It's the slippery slope fallacy taken to the extreme - "because it's possible to imagine a situation in which a vaccine passport system goes way beyond its usefulness and becomes oppressive, that means vaccine passport systems are oppressive." In addition to that sentiment being wrong, HN also has a pretty violent knee-jerk reaction to anything that could even potentially be taken as anti-vax sentiment. As can be seen by this garbage[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29659905#29661353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29659905#29661353
    - zivkovicp 5y ago
      > Social credit is offensive and freedom-limiting by definition. Yes, I agree. I was defending this exact point. The commenter I replied to originally seemed upset about the original comment condemning vax passports. I guess I didn't word my response clearly enough.
      - nix23 5y ago
        To put a proof of vaccination on the same level as a social credit system is just beyond, if you don't have a passport you cannot travel into other country's, if your dog is not vaccinated against rabbis, he cannot travel to let's say Georgia. I am upset because a Quanon goat thinks a vaxpass is the same as a social credit system, and was just made for that "ultimately"
    - throwaway2037 5y ago
      Zero trolling here. I am modestly in favour of a COVID-19 vaccine "passport". And yes, I have considered the oppression side of the argument. Why am I modestly in favour? Look at how yellow fever vaccination status is handled. In areas of the world where it is still endemic, travelers are denied entry without a recent vaccination and an official UN/WHO card to prove it. (Please leave aside for a moment the idea that these cards can be fake. Assume they are accurate for this discussion.) Almost by small-d-democratic definition, the yellow fever vaccine requirement is oppressive. However, it helps to reduce the spread of yellow fever. Please provide your thoughts and comments.
      - pc86 5y ago
        I've never traveled anywhere yellow fever is endemic so I don't know a ton about it other than the vaccination requirements you mention. I carry my vaccination card in my wallet so I'm not immediately opposed to some sort of verifiable way to confirm one's vaccination status. There are absolutely some instances where it makes sense to mandate it, but it's wrong to try to structure society so that you can't take part unless you're vaccinated. There's a point at which mandates and guidelines aren't helpful anymore and they become theater. I'm not going to put a mask on at the entrance to a restaurant, walk ten feet to a table, and take my mask off. That's theater. I have unvaccinated family members. They're not changing their mind, I'm done trying to change it, but they're still in my family and they're not disowned or excommunicated because they happen to be wrong about something. Omicron seems as transmissible or slightly more-so, but much less deadly. That sounds like exactly what we thought multiple variants would lead to a year ago. It sounds like things are in the right track and we're on our way out of the forest, so to speak. But, government being government, I don't see mandates slowing or going away any time soon. I think what's here is here to stay, whether it works or not.
  - geofft 5y ago
    There's a risk of a baseball bat being used to limit, coerce, and change people's behavior, and there are documented cases of them being used in that way, but nobody would say that the Louisville Slugger is crypto-authoritarianism. Your statement isn't offensive and nobody is offended by it; it's just, as the comment above said, stupid. There's a difference.
    - dang 5y ago
      Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? You have a long history of doing this, even though I know you've also posted lots of good things. Please stick to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
  - nix23 5y ago
    > Even if the intent of such programs might be positive, is there not a risk of them being used to limit, coerce, or change user behaviour? Oh yes same with passports.....
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That just makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to warn you repeatedly in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875046 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875046 (July 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25826399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25826399 (Jan 2021) Continuing like this will get you banned here, so please don't.
  - nix23 5y ago
    The comments below mine just don't look like i "made" something worse, quite the opposite, the comments below mine are leaning more in that or the other direction, i am fine with that i don't see a problem here...but anyway...accepted.
  - geofft 5y ago
    Then you need to do a better job of moderating the bad comments in the first place. We're all trying to make HN a good and enjoyable place the best way we can, and you warn "both sides" like that helps anything.
    - dang 5y ago
      You seem to have an unrealistic picture of what moderation can do, if you think we ought to be moderating all the bad comments in the first place. That's not remotely possible.
dang 5y ago
You broke the site guidelines egregiously here, and made it worse downthread. We ban accounts that do that repeatedly, and I'm dismayed to see that you've been doing it a lot. I'm not going to ban you right now because you've also posted good (for HN) comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29300291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29300291 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28987167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28987167, but to be honest, those are pretty slim pickings in the account's history. That's a problem and we need you to fix it if you want to keep participating here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

by _red 5y ago

nix23 5y ago

_red 5y ago
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  Enjoy the ICU.
  - dang 5y ago
    Breaking the site guidelines like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: fortunately you don't seem to be in the habit of it (that's good).
zivkovicp 5y ago
How so? Even if the intent of such programs might be positive, is there not a risk of them being used to limit, coerce, or change user behaviour? (it wouldn't be the first time) Why is this such an offensive statement?
- pc86 5y ago
  Social credit is offensive and freedom-limiting by definition. You can't make any small-d-democratic argument in favor of a massive central social credit system because the two are antithetical. A vaccine passport system could turn into something similar, but that's not necessarily a given. It's the slippery slope fallacy taken to the extreme - "because it's possible to imagine a situation in which a vaccine passport system goes way beyond its usefulness and becomes oppressive, that means vaccine passport systems are oppressive." In addition to that sentiment being wrong, HN also has a pretty violent knee-jerk reaction to anything that could even potentially be taken as anti-vax sentiment. As can be seen by this garbage[0]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29659905#29661353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29659905#29661353
  - zivkovicp 5y ago
    > Social credit is offensive and freedom-limiting by definition. Yes, I agree. I was defending this exact point. The commenter I replied to originally seemed upset about the original comment condemning vax passports. I guess I didn't word my response clearly enough.
    - nix23 5y ago
      To put a proof of vaccination on the same level as a social credit system is just beyond, if you don't have a passport you cannot travel into other country's, if your dog is not vaccinated against rabbis, he cannot travel to let's say Georgia. I am upset because a Quanon goat thinks a vaxpass is the same as a social credit system, and was just made for that "ultimately"
  - throwaway2037 5y ago
    Zero trolling here. I am modestly in favour of a COVID-19 vaccine "passport". And yes, I have considered the oppression side of the argument. Why am I modestly in favour? Look at how yellow fever vaccination status is handled. In areas of the world where it is still endemic, travelers are denied entry without a recent vaccination and an official UN/WHO card to prove it. (Please leave aside for a moment the idea that these cards can be fake. Assume they are accurate for this discussion.) Almost by small-d-democratic definition, the yellow fever vaccine requirement is oppressive. However, it helps to reduce the spread of yellow fever. Please provide your thoughts and comments.
    - pc86 5y ago
      I've never traveled anywhere yellow fever is endemic so I don't know a ton about it other than the vaccination requirements you mention. I carry my vaccination card in my wallet so I'm not immediately opposed to some sort of verifiable way to confirm one's vaccination status. There are absolutely some instances where it makes sense to mandate it, but it's wrong to try to structure society so that you can't take part unless you're vaccinated. There's a point at which mandates and guidelines aren't helpful anymore and they become theater. I'm not going to put a mask on at the entrance to a restaurant, walk ten feet to a table, and take my mask off. That's theater. I have unvaccinated family members. They're not changing their mind, I'm done trying to change it, but they're still in my family and they're not disowned or excommunicated because they happen to be wrong about something. Omicron seems as transmissible or slightly more-so, but much less deadly. That sounds like exactly what we thought multiple variants would lead to a year ago. It sounds like things are in the right track and we're on our way out of the forest, so to speak. But, government being government, I don't see mandates slowing or going away any time soon. I think what's here is here to stay, whether it works or not.
- geofft 5y ago
  There's a risk of a baseball bat being used to limit, coerce, and change people's behavior, and there are documented cases of them being used in that way, but nobody would say that the Louisville Slugger is crypto-authoritarianism. Your statement isn't offensive and nobody is offended by it; it's just, as the comment above said, stupid. There's a difference.
  - dang 5y ago
    Would you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? You have a long history of doing this, even though I know you've also posted lots of good things. Please stick to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- nix23 5y ago
  > Even if the intent of such programs might be positive, is there not a risk of them being used to limit, coerce, or change user behaviour? Oh yes same with passports.....
dang 5y ago
Please do not respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That just makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to warn you repeatedly in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875046 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875046 (July 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25826399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25826399 (Jan 2021) Continuing like this will get you banned here, so please don't.
- nix23 5y ago
  The comments below mine just don't look like i "made" something worse, quite the opposite, the comments below mine are leaning more in that or the other direction, i am fine with that i don't see a problem here...but anyway...accepted.
- geofft 5y ago
  Then you need to do a better job of moderating the bad comments in the first place. We're all trying to make HN a good and enjoyable place the best way we can, and you warn "both sides" like that helps anything.
  - dang 5y ago
    You seem to have an unrealistic picture of what moderation can do, if you think we ought to be moderating all the bad comments in the first place. That's not remotely possible.

dang 5y ago

You broke the site guidelines egregiously here, and made it worse downthread. We ban accounts that do that repeatedly, and I'm dismayed to see that you've been doing it a lot. I'm not going to ban you right now because you've also posted good (for HN) comments like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29300291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29300291 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28987167 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28987167, but to be honest, those are pretty slim pickings in the account's history. That's a problem and we need you to fix it if you want to keep participating here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.